Herne Hill Plans Unveiled

ideally i need a left crank arm a inch and a half longer than my right

I would say that a stack of spacers between your cleats and shoes would be better to rise the center of rotation of your left foot. Dunno how feasible that is though.

can't you have a time trials night where you bring whatever bike you want to go ridiculously fast with?
I mean, what exactly do geared bikes want to achieve on the track? group rides?

I don't like those half roof things

actually having been to Cottbus I do like them and 90% of the time when its raining they can still race

Nah, problems with going from shade to sun and the lag in your vision adjusting, especially if yer wearing shades. Plus rain rarely falls straight down

Generally speaking i like the design tho it will need to tweaking. There's lots of focus on lack of seating being a problem...how many spectators has anyone seen at hh recently, with Good friday gone indoors, HH isn't frequently going to attract hundreds of spectators. As long as there's a track to use i'm not massively bothered what surrounds it.

have u ever ridden a part covered track?

as for the sitting be bloody positive! the whole point of this is to raise the profile of the track, get more use attract bigger events. If you have the facilities they will come!

I thought the purpose of the public meeting was to save the velodrome not build a new concept.

Did you attend the meeting? I ask because I thought it was clear that to save Herne Hill a long term viable plan was required so that Dulwich Estates would grant a longer term lease than the current one year ones it's giving to VCL.

can't you have a time trials night where you bring whatever bike you want to go ridiculously fast with?
I mean, what exactly do geared bikes want to achieve on the track? group rides?

Same stuff as the track riders - closed circuit training. A safe flat surface where they can really ramp up the speed.

looks very expensive and the usual 'architect's vision'
when are the realistic plans being released with a facility for cyclists not a glass folly/cafe?

Lol, what are you on about?

so is the proposal for HH a style exercise/vanity project for an architect?

What makes you think this?

Sounds like you have an axe to grind.

don't get me wrong it's a great looking building but where is the money coming from for the posh looking non-essential parts of the construction?
i would rather see a large concrete area with metal grating and 2 hoses for bike washing get built (instead of a pallet in a muddy bit of grass) than a swoopy bit of pvc roofing that serves no purpose other than to flatter the ego of somebody wearing thick rimmed glasses and their top button done up with no tie.

I rest my case.

From today's Building Design, a weekly design tossrag paper for architects:

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let me guess, you must be an architect?
maybe you should undo that top button.

But MrSmyth, do you recognise that to ensure long term revenue, the new design* will need to attract people beyond the current HH users? *whatever it turns out to be.

On top of that, seeking funding for a Hog Hill type functional block isn't going to attract external funders - particularly corporate ones. This may annoy you and make your little beard twitch, but that's the reality.

The ideal would be to include the experience of practical use (e.g. the bike washing thing you talk about above) along with the needs of the local and national community of cyclists and non cyclists - you've got to get around the local antipathy towards increased traffic around there too.

At the moment, you seem to be criticising an architects plans. That's like shooting fish in a barrel. Can you tell me how far down the Consultation / Feasibility Study / Options Appraisal / RIBA Plan of Work stages they are?

However I suspect you will maintain your 'critical friend' approach and carry on making slightly bitter comments, no matter what's built. Be honest about your approach. You're never going to be happy with the final outcome are you?

I think he could end up happy with the final outcome. Behind the glib veneer of MrSmyth's comments are important concerns. You can't blame people for being cynical in this day and age.

Hopkins are ideal Architects for HH , not least that their deisgn for the Velodrome and Velo park is based on a real consultation with users.
Before they won the bid, which was not expected , they came out to Leyton on a wet tuesday in the winter and sat down with Lea Valley CC and listened to our views on what the Velodrome would be like. They were the only firm to do this.

I also know that they spoke to the Eastway users group as well .

Yes Scarlett, this did include meeting John Summerhayes, who saw Fausto Coppi race @ HH.

It was probably put together in about a week.

The idea of an elevated, covered terrace is a good one, as they won't be able to afford a grandstand. Tensile roof structures are relatively cheap and very effective, but hardly glamorous; they went out of 'fashion' over a decade ago. The idea that it flatters someone's ego is ridiculous I'm afraid. In fact, I can see absolutely nothing in the plans that seems in any way whimsical.

Most architects just want to do something that is elegant and that works well practically. It's a popular misconception that we're all nonchalant egotists wanting to put up skyscrapers. I'm sure things such as bike parking will be dealt with in time.

MrSmyth did catch me out though... my top button is done up.

Hopkins are ideal Architects for HH , not least that their deisgn for the Velodrome and Velo park is based on a real consultation with users.
Before they won the bid, which was not expected , they came out to Leyton on a wet tuesday in the winter and sat down with Lea Valley CC and listened to our views on what the Velodrome would be like. They were the only firm to do this.

I also know that they spoke to the Eastway users group as well .

Yes Scarlett, this did include meeting John Summerhayes, who saw Fausto Coppi race @ HH.

There are letters in the Museo del Ciclismo Madonna del Ghisallo in which Coppi talks about missing the start of a scratch race due to a lengthy conversation with an English amateur cyclist "whose whimsical story-telling was as infuriating as it was engaging".

i can't answer that until the grand opening.
but if there is:
bike parking
hard standing bike wash
disabled access (not just to cafe)
a good view of the finish line for the scorers and spectators alike
vehicular access to track center (no mention of this on plans)
cross racing/mtb is still happening at HH
a nicely resurfaced track
a cafe to sit down in and not skid across the shiny floor.
then it should be a great facility.

if the plans don't show something workable then why is it my fault if i point them out?

if i ask you to show me some ideas for a new housebuild and give you a brief and then say "looks cool where's the front door and the handrail for the stairs?"
"oh it's just a work in progress"

what happens if everyone nods and says "the velodrome plans look great" and nobody criticises them? a flawed facility gets built because nobody takes on board what the end user wants.
(i have had a few pm's and direct comments from track users generally agreeing with the points i and others have made)

i can appreciate that corporate funding needs to sought but does that have to preclude usable facilities? surely a design can incorporate both or is that stretching the vision too far?

the new design* will need to attract people beyond the current HH users?

It's important to establish that the velodrome **already **attracts a significant amount of interest from many parties who we have to turn away because the venue is not currently suitable for their events.

Numerous corporate events, large school groups, loads of film/photographic requests, even weddings. We cannot accommodate them with the velodrome in it's current state (see the Good Friday international) It's not even currently up to basic standards having no changing rooms/showers and all other "facilities" being rudimentary at best.

Despite this, during the summer there are still regular track sessions every single day ,school groups every day during term time and holiday club when it's school holidays.

Simply opening the gates on a saturday morning means 100-200 people will flood through during the course of the day, the facility itself (even with the new development) will still have similar limits to the current ones (the track limit and car parking for instance are hardly likely to change)

It's really not a case of "if you build it they will come" "they" are already coming, in droves. We just need the facility to accommodate them better than it can now. It's very important that people understand this.

I'll diversify your funding base any day baby!

But if someone like Fusion ever offers to manage some of the non cycling facilities, please run a mile.

MySmyth, thank you for the answer. I'll try and give you a less keyboard warrior response than before. I've been forced to manage more white elephant capital community projects than I ever want to see happen again, so your list of what needs to be in place, and what needs to be better than other places is important.

However, given that we're not seeing scale drawings or actual plans, am I wrong in thinking it's still at the wish list / concept / consultation stage?

The danger of going too far with a development is that you are forever seeking to financially justify it, the running costs are higher yet the revenue does not increase at the same rate. You can end up with a gas guzzler whn you only needed a runabout.
This is precisely one of the reasons why the place failed under Southwark council/fusion.

haha, cross fusion hate posting.

The whole ethos of why save the velodrome was started is getting lost, the point of outrage was that the place was so busy despite the condition, it just had to be saved.

Nobody would have bothered if the demands were not significant.

MySmyth, thank you for the answer. I'll try and give you a less keyboard warrior response than before. I've been forced to manage more white elephant capital community projects than I ever want to see happen again, so your list of what needs to be in place, and what needs to be better than other places is important.

we all want the same result, a revamped HH for everyone to enjoy that we know is going to still be there in years to come.

If these developments all go ahead. When are they likely to start and how long will they last for?

There's the small matter of raising the £5m first.

As I understand it, these plans are part of the campaign to show Dulwich Estates what could be done, with the goal of persuading them to grant a long term lease to the campaign/BC/VCL. They are some way of being approved so much of this discussion is academic.