26" vs 700c

the reason i ride a fixed trick frame -
most of them have already been said....

i like the fact i can run my seat slammed, but still do all the sitting down and flat ground tricks
i love the small back end, again with slammed wheel making wheelies all that easier
i like the fact that mines still a beaut to commute on (67 gear inches)
being able to choose between wheel sizes is pretty sweet
its LIGHT
i adore the way it looks
the headtube angle is lovely and steep, making nose pivots/manuals easier
(my seat tube is 50cm, the toptube is 54.5, headtube angle is 74 i think)
i like the choice of parts available for it
and most importantly its fixed gear :)

im not arguing that any of these reasons are valid by the way, just explaining my reasons for picking mine over a mtb frame. end of rant :)

the reason i ride a fixed trick frame -
most of them have already been said....

i like the fact i can run my seat slammed, but still do all the sitting down and flat ground tricks
i love the small back end, again with slammed wheel making wheelies all that easier
i like the fact that mines still a beaut to commute on (67 gear inches)
being able to choose between wheel sizes is pretty sweet
its LIGHT
i adore the way it looks
the headtube angle is lovely and steep, making nose pivots/manuals easier
(my seat tube is 50cm, the toptube is 54.5, headtube angle is 74 i think)
i like the choice of parts available for it
and most importantly its fixed gear :)

im not arguing that any of these reasons are valid by the way, just explaining my reasons for picking mine over a mtb frame. end of rant :)

I'm gonna pick your post apart but purely for the sake of the discussion.

You say you like that you can run the seat slammed but still do sitting down and flat ground tricks, how does that differ to a small frame with an extended seatpost?
Some might say a smaller frame with an extended post kept the frame out the way and made certain tricks easier.
Surely it's the placement of the seat that's important for the sit down tricks and general rideability of the bike but that seat is what makes the bike harder to tuck up under you like a bmx.
You say you like the tight back end and steep head angle for wheelies and nose tricks. What would you say if I told you that in flatland bmx where the bikes spend most of their time on only one wheel, steep headangles and short back ends were considered de'rigeur a few years ago but more recently these things have been slackened off because it's been found that a bike that's easy to get onto the front or rear wheel is not easy to keep there and that a slacker head angle/longer back end creates a larger balance point?
Is a sturdy trick bike really lighter than a mid level bmx? ( i say midlevel as it's possible to build ridiculously light bmxs but they won't be very sturdy and it's equally possible to find cheap bmx's that weigh around 40lbs)

Just a couple of counters - in your eg can you bar spin? and...

...with an MTB you dont have track dropouts to ride fixed... but then given the massive cost of all the fixed trickery I'd guess you'd save enough by using mtb parts to replace the dropouts.

Mountain Bikes (Specifically street and dirtjumpers whose frames I've been using as a parallel) have been throwing bars for far longer than people have been doing it on fixed wheels. The answer is yes.

On the second point, so many of the frames designed for street and DJ are singlespeed specific (Less shit to break right!). Meaning that with the correct hub they can be used either fixed of SS.

Just to be devil's advocate,
Im surprised noone has mentioned how the wider (135mm std) rear end on mtb frames dictates a wider/larger/higher q factor which might detrimentally effect pedal clearance.
As mentioned in my earlier post, pedal strike is not an issue and that's using 175mm cranks with wide BMX pedals.
Additioanlly The Euro, spanish or mid BB used on a street or DJ MTB uses exactly the same length BB axle as all of the modern 700CMX frames.

I know that Mech has already done this but. I've added some comments in bold.

i like the fact i can run my seat slammed, but still do all the sitting down and flat ground tricks** - This is irrelevent. You can put the saddle at exactly the same height on a DJ frame, or slam it even lower if you wanted too**

i love the small back end, again with slammed wheel making wheelies all t7hat easier** - The back end on a street MTB is marginally tighter than a 700CMX frame, so by your logic it would be even easier to wheelie etc**

i like the fact that mines still a beaut to commute on (67 gear inches)** - gear choice is not frame specific, you can put 67GI on any frame.**

being able to choose between wheel sizes is pretty sweet** - I used 700c wheels on a DMR trailstar for years. Wheels size is not frame dependent when fixed and brakeless as it doesn't matter if the brake bosses are in the wrong place. As mentoined earlier the difference in wheel size between a 26" wheel with fat tyres and a 700c wheel with fat tyres is marginal at best and none existent at worst.**

its LIGHT** - I guarantee that a well built street/DJ MTB weighs less. The tyres and rims are usually lighter as they don't need as much material to make them strong. other than those things most 700CMX bikes use MTB or BMX parts.**

the headtube angle is lovely and steep, making nose pivots/manuals easier** - again as pointed out in my previous post the headtube angles are the same.**

i like the choice of parts available for it** - MTB and BMX parts in the most part but the beautiful thing about bikes is that parts are interchangeable. Any part you can run on a fixed trick bike can be run on an MTB with the exclusion of 120 spaced rear hubs.**

and most importantly its fixed gear** - Which is down to hub choice and there are plenty of 135 spaced fixed hubs. As well as ISO mountable cogs.**

I'm not ripping into you but it seems like the point below is the only one which is valid.

i adore the way it looks

Which isn't a bad thing.

^ + a million.
I hope you don't feel i'm picking on you F34Rthefixed because i'm not,in fact I applaude the fact that you're honest enough to say you adore the way it looks.

Imo the aesthetic is a huge part of it for a lot of people and I think anyone that says riding a trackesque bike for tricks has nothing to do with fixie culture and how popular more mainstream fixed wheel bikes are just now is kidding themselves.

Object: May I suggest one technical thing, as a non fixedtricks rider that may accoutn for alot of the use of fixedtrick/track frames over mtb. That being the dropout width. The vat majority of fixed hubs are 120mm and the vast majority of mtb are 135mm. I should imagine that has alot to do with it. Also steel over alu, but then there are plenty of steel DJ MTB frames out there, so maybe thats a moot point.

But I must say I am interested in your questions too, also as a non fixed trick rider with a history in MTB.

I'd be inclined to agree with you if it weren't for the fact that a MTB rear disk hub can run an ISO mounted cog. Something that I did for years with no issues. Additionally, Surly, Goldtec, Phil Wood and Pauls Components all make 135 spaced fixed hubs. I'm sure there are more.

On the last point. A few companies make Aluminium street and DJ frames but the vast majority are steel precisely because they're designed to be thrown around and dropped.

I know that there are lots of ways round the 135 spacing thing, but I think its more of a psychological thing. People seem to think along the lines of: fixed = tark = 120

And perhaps that fixed = track thing and mentality is majorly pervasive.

I dunno.

As FGFS evolves i am sure most of the machines will be variations on current 26 inch dirt jump frames - certainly they are heading that way now. I dont see why a FGFS machine has to resemble a track bike at all - to my mind a fixed gear bicycle refers to the drive train, not a type of bicycle that happens to use that drive train.

I love Teds new one off 26er he built for a customer recently - i would expect most machines to go down this route over the next couple of years

I'm gonna pick your post apart but purely for the sake of the discussion.

You say you like that you can run the seat slammed but still do sitting down and flat ground tricks, how does that differ to a small frame with an extended seatpost?
Some might say a smaller frame with an extended post kept the frame out the way and made certain tricks easier.
Surely it's the placement of the seat that's important for the sit down tricks and general rideability of the bike but that seat is what makes the bike harder to tuck up under you like a bmx.
You say you like the tight back end and steep head angle for wheelies and nose tricks. What would you say if I told you that in flatland bmx where the bikes spend most of their time on only one wheel, steep headangles and short back ends were considered de'rigeur a few years ago but more recently these things have been slackened off because it's been found that a bike that's easy to get onto the front or rear wheel is not easy to keep there and that a slacker head angle/longer back end creates a larger balance point?
Is a sturdy trick bike really lighter than a mid level bmx? ( i say midlevel as it's possible to build ridiculously light bmxs but they won't be very sturdy and it's equally possible to find cheap bmx's that weigh around 40lbs)

ahhh no problem guys, i love a bit of banter me ;)

seat being slammed = much less likely to break when landing 180s, as you land in your seat hard to pedal fakie, also much easier for nice high bunnyhops. i hate high seatposts sooo much.
as far as steep angles go, i love twitchy bikes. even if slacker angles make balancing easier to maintain, i hate the way it feels for general riding....
my bike is lighter than a mid level bmx :) i know because a guy in my lbs got the scales out to try and prove his bmx was better than my esb
40lbs?!?! my bike weighs 19lbs, and thats with 2.1 tyres and a bmx drivetrain!
besides, weight has dick all to do with this argument really, as i wouldn't buy a bmx regardless of how heavy/light/amazing it is, as i simply dont like riding them.

repped

ahhh no problem guys, i love a bit of banter me ;)

seat being slammed = much less likely to break when landing 180s, as you land in your seat

Should you really be landing 180s to the seat? I can't imagine how difficult landing in the seat would make completing a 180.

also much easier for nice high bunnyhops.

Surely it's the placement of the seat that's important ... but that seat is what makes the bike harder to tuck up under you like a bmx

Whether you have a lot of frame and little post or a little and a lot of post the seat is in pretty much the same place relative to the bars and more importantly, the pedals.

i hate high seatposts sooo much.

What do y'all think of this for running fixed?
Cheap too

Beautifully put Jeez.

For the record, this has been one fo the most interesting discussions on this forum for a long time. Just thinkling about the various factors has given me quite a lot of enjoyment and it's been quite a while since I've had to google bike geometries to make viable comparrisons.

jeez hit the nail on the head for sure
oh and for the record im running 26s
tricking on 700c just doesnt make sense, dont understand how i did it for so long.....

Great post Jeez, the part of it that made me think the most being this,

But if it is all about pushing yourself to do new and interesting things on a bike then open your mind to the sort of bike you want to be on to acheive those things.

It made me realise that while some fixed trick riders are pushing what's possible on a fixed wheel bike, the people that are doing this on bmx's are doing things that are on a completely different level and maybe that's where the attraction of doing fixed tricks on a bike that's not a million miles away from a track bike comes from.
As the bikes get closer to bmx's or mtb's the level of riding must do so too.
I think what i'm trying to say is that a backflip on a track bike is more impressive than a backflip on a bmx that doesn't freewheel.

On the second point, so many of the frames designed for street and DJ are singlespeed specific (Less shit to break right!). Meaning that with the correct hub they can be used either fixed of SS.

DMR have 'swopouts' (and i'm sure other dirt/street frame manufacturers have replaceable drop-outs too) so you can run either vert or horizontal drop-outs giving the added bonus of replace-ability if you break an end. Haven't seen a trick frame with this feature yet.

Quick question r.e. this razzle dazzle about fixed wheel trick bike, is it not possible to run a BMX with a fixed wheel tranmission to be able to do other kind of trick that's not possible on a freewheel bicycle?

^ this doesn't work apparently bc a BMX is so low you get peddle strike when you corner.

Some, and I stress it's a small number, flatlanders use fix. Most are freewheel or freecoaster though.

I wish my DMR trailstar has swap outs. They didn't exist in 97 though.

I love Teds new one off 26er he built for a customer recently - i would expect most machines to go down this route over the next couple of years

Sweet frame, has anyone any more details? Perfect for 26" polo too, I would have one in an instant if it had disc mounts

"Teds" new "one off" 26er - Superted, ESB, one off but maybe you can convince him to make another with disk mounts, call shop 14.

I ride a scissor on 47c's but it's not really for 'tricks' - I just like being able to jump over and off stuff. I use it off road too. And for me the only reason for having a fixed bike as opposed to a street mtb is that I like being able to sit down probably. On my scissor I've got full leg extension and a nice hi bar position.

The only reason I wouldn;t ride a jump frame with a mega seat post is aesthetic - I think it looks shite. Plain and simple.

I ride a scissor on 47c's but it's not really for 'tricks' - I just like being able to jump over and off stuff. I use it off road too. And for me the only reason for having a fixed bike as opposed to a street mtb is that I like being able to sit down probably. On my scissor I've got full leg extension and a nice hi bar position.

The only reason I wouldn;t ride a jump frame with a mega seat post is aesthetic - I think it looks shite. Plain and simple.
Cheers for the input rory.