From the cab - a HGV drivers view

I think that all of these discussions could be dispelled simply by a grand investment in proper bike lanes.

I absolutely agree. I've cycled a lot in Germany, and also in Copenhagen, and I have to say, after cycling in those places I have no desire to cycle on the road, if there is a reasonable alternative.

I believe, though I may be wrong, that in Germany, if there is a cycle lane, you are required to use it rather than the road, and that was no problem for me at all.

Many people here say, that as cyclists, we have as much right to be on the road as other vehicles, and of course they are right. But having the right doesn't mean it's always sensible to use it, and it doesn't take a genius to realise that having heavy vehicles sharing the same space as flimsy bikes with no protection is a recipe for disaster (as is proven time and time again).

I don't think that the green strip on the side of the roads achieves much, but a double level pavement, or a separated cycle path is in my mind much safer for cyclists.

i think it's always a case that our cities, well, london in particular are too old and narrow to accommodate such things. essentially it boils down to the fact that (to bring it back to germany again) the luftwaffe should've been much better at bombing london and not just hit hull and coventry all the time.. that way we would've had more room for renovation during the post-war period. bike lanes and suitable accommodation for all!

Oh and I also think that for major innercity projects like the Shard, where large numbers of haulage trucks are operating, they should have to stick to a certain route from their dump site, with the roads marked and signposted as HGV haulage road, kind of like a cycle path for trucks, where they have priority right of way, cyclists are discouraged from riding on unless necessary or their is a separated cyclepath etc. If you can limit the number of roads large numbers of trucks can use then its going to be easier for cyclists to avoid these roads and hence avoid a large part of the problem.

I think this was worth being repeated. The number of times I find myself riding down small (south-east London) roads and finding myself in amongst massive tipper trucks. Hello? Your truck is not a nippy little commuter car.

Would also like to underline points made about bike lanes actively working against the safety of cyclists, and how this bad design continues in the "cycle superhighway" (sic) plans.

Finally, I have learned to avoid tipper trucks and skip lorries, my theory is that half the time these trucks are full, and so are slow and boring to drive, and the other half the time they are empty, so are fast and fun to drive, meaning the temptation is to drive them really quick. Moreover, all (red) post office vans are driven by lunatics.

paramount - the wehrmacht were the regular German army, I think (hope) you mean the luftwaffe!

paramount - the wehrmacht were the regular German army, I think (hope) you mean the luftwaffe!

oh, did you not hear about the german suicide bombing foot soldiers during ww2? ahem..

With respect, the problem will not necessarily be solved by engineering. Conrad DuToit was killed by a right-turning lorry in the St Pancras Way bike lane, which is seperate from the rest of the road by a raised kerb.

Cyclists refered to as organ donors/lemmings.

ok B, in your experience how do you cut down the deaths? But with the compromise of a growing city.

Cyclists refered to as organ donors/lemmings.

ok B, in your experience how do you cut down the deaths? But with the compromise of a growing city.

Everyone, and I mean everyone, needs to share the road - but the drivers of big vehicles need to be even more careful than the rest of us, because they can kill, even at 2 mph.

That's impossible to implement though. You will never be able to eliminate the exceptions of poor driver skill/care.
The safest cycling cities seem to have consistent and significant distinctions between vehicle/bicycle space. But then we get back to the problem of our unwilling government.

Everyone, and I mean everyone, needs to share the road - but the drivers of big vehicles need to be even more careful than the rest of us, because they can kill, even at 2 mph.

+1

I saw a perfect example of a bad cyclist today filtering through in front a estate at a red light. The dude could have quite easily lost his leg while passing. Luckily the driver saw him and while pulling off moved over to the right. Silly silly!

This A to B bubble with no consideration for other people is the attitude of london commuters (cars,bikes,peds etc.)

I think annas said this before or words to this effect... Ride with a smile. Good moto IMO.

Increasing funding for the CVEU would probably help. Here is what Cynthia Barlow (who is the most effective campaigner in this area) had to say at the time when Boris was trying to cut funding:

I am opposed to the threatened closure of the CVEU, for several reasons:

1. In many cases, when cyclists have been killed, there are no witnesses or there are other problems with the viability of a criminal prosecution. It is therefore very important that there is the opportunity for a follow-up by a police unit which also has health and safety powers.

2. The two industries which have the worst record of on-site deaths of employees are the construction industry and the waste management industry. It is therefore not a surprise that this can spill over into the figures for work-related road deaths. A unit which has powers to enforce health and safety rules as well as the criminal law is therefore very important.

3. Last year, when the CVEU was undertaking the regular checks of lorries making deliveries to the main Olympic site at Stratford, you will remember that approximately 80% of the vehicles they checked were illegal in some respect : wrong license, no insurance, overloaded, vehicle defects, no operator license etc etc. Hence the campaign by the ODA last year. But that is one building site. How many others are there in London? Taking into account the other Olympic sites, Crossrail, other public transport infrastructure projects etc, there will soon be a huge increase in the number of construction-related vehicles on our roads, often on residential roads. Somebody needs to be keeping an eye on the implications of all this, and it is a specialized area, the average PCSO will probably not know what to look out for and will need special training.

http://www.movingtargetzine.com/article/cynthia-barlow-of-roadpeace-on-cuts-to-lorry-police

And I agree about the bike lanes. All they do is encourage poor positioning and lead you into dangerous space at junctions. And being so bold and obviously 'bicycle lanes' they're improperly educating people who don't know better, implying that that is the 'correct' place to be, which as anyone who has a basic understanding of the safety will know, is seldom the case.

Because of a physical lack of space, a continental style segregated bike lane option would never work. In my opinion there is only one available option for London (and other cramped british cities)

There has to be a major awareness campaign that makes cyclists equal in the minds of other road users.

This could include any number of these measures.

-Reduced inner city speed limits
-Getting rid of useless green strip cycle lanes (and superhighways) and advocating the primary position
-Cycle awareness training in the driving test, and an advanced version for HGV's, taxis etc
-Better mirrors/sensors etc for HGV's

• Some form of compulsory training for cyclists (Flame me, but the idea that anyone can pick up a bike, without reading the highway code, and go mingle on the roads in central london is frankly ludicrous, they put themselves and others at risk, and if drivers knew cyclists had some kind of test, they might be a bit more respectful)
  -Better, secure cycle parking
  -More facilities at work (lockers, showers etc)
  
  

I think if cyclists and cars are to share the road in a proper, equal manner, there has to be some give and take from both sides.

That's an album by long forgotten prog-rockers Pallas, isn't it. In the UK, under-taking is passing on the left, on a 2-way road.

What's "near-side" nearer to the driver's side? It would seem to make sense, but it could also mean "nearer to the curb".

Yes. Near side. The side closest to the side of the road. Near to kerb.

Face palm

• Some form of compulsory training for cyclists (Flame me, but the idea that anyone can pick up a bike, without reading the highway code, and go mingle on the roads in central london is frankly ludicrous, they put themselves and others at risk, and if drivers knew cyclists had some kind of test, they might be a bit more respectful)
  
  

The problem being that all bicycles would then need to be licensed in order to enforce the CBT, which is gunna cause a whole lot of fun for everyone. Have any other countries done this?

Yes. Near side. The side closest to the side of the road. Near to kerb.

Face palm

Yeah, buddy, face palm a person trying to get more information. As I said, "near side" could refer to nearer the driver's side OR the curb. Why don't you say "curbside" as we do in the States, if you want to be specific? We may speak the same language but British English trips me up time and again.

I've not been to Amsterdam except as a child and for one evening, so didn't really pay attention to city planning, but it doesn't seem to jive with my thoughts of the city that it is less cramped than London. If Amsterdam can have a "cyclist superhighway" or designated raised cyclist lanes, why can't London? Have I just missed something?

The problem being that all bicycles would then need to be licensed in order to enforce the CBT, which is gunna cause a whole lot of fun for everyone. Have any other countries done this?

I agree it's costly and would be a nightmare too enforce, but if we physically can't have the separation of road users that some other countries have, then we need to look into ways of making sure that sharing the road is as safe as possible.

The problem being that all bicycles would then need to be licensed in order to enforce the CBT, which is gunna cause a whole lot of fun for everyone. Have any other countries done this?

Any compulsory licensing or tests is likely to lead to a decrease in take-up of cycling. Agreed that training, especially for adults who have never cycled, is desirable but if the desired effect is to increase numbers of cyclists, then I have to agree with Weslito.

Any compulsory licensing or tests is likely to lead to a decrease in take-up of cycling. Agreed that training, especially for adults who have never cycled, is desirable but if the desired effect is to increase numbers of cyclists, then I have to agree with Weslito.

The city has only so much space for all the road users, increasing any one number must be accompanied by a decrease in another.

I absolutely agree. I've cycled a lot in Germany, and also in Copenhagen, and I have to say, after cycling in those places I have no desire to cycle on the road, if there is a reasonable alternative

Good luck finding a reasonable cycle lane in london.

Infrastructure is a big part of the problem, however I don't believe that cycle lanes are the holy grail. Where there is room near large A roads etc feeding into the city it could be worthwhile, however along many roads there simply isn't space for this, and if an attempt at installing a cycle lane is made it creates more danger. So at that point the road design itself is crucial to giving the most vulnerable road users the best chance of arriving alive at their destination.

Big multilane gyratories and multilane roundabouts are not very safe for cyclists as Oliver and others continue to point out, and these need to be redesigned as a matter of urgency IMO. The road network we currently have in london is a mish-mash of old medieval streets and lanes and 20th century thinking "car is king" A roads.

This 20th century thinking has got to be the biggest hinderance in making the roads a safer place to be. Far too many people are driving around needlessly when they could be taking other forms of transport, therefore clogging the roads up and turning the traffic into the shit-fight it is every day.

Just throwing something out there, flame me if you will, but 1 possible solution would be to extend bus lanes to make them continuous and redesign all junctions to give priority to buses. Make public transport half the cost it is now. Buses would be fast and convenient, and we would have wide, continuous lanes with priority at junctions. Sure, we'd have to share them with buses like we do already, but i find that the bus lanes are generally a fairly safe place to be.

What do people think? Good idea or hair brained scheme?

I went to a surgery thing at the houses of parliament the other night and was talking to (ranting at) the Streatham mp about the recent deaths, as well as last years etc. This is him:

Keith Hill's ministerial career started when he was appointed as Parliamentary Under Secretary for Transport (as well as Minister for London) at the then Department of Environment, Transport and the Regions (DETR) in 1999. During his time at DETR, he was responsible for local transport and transport in London.

...so should know a bit about it. He was "surprised" about the extent of the danger, that hgv's didn't have all the available safety equipment and that cycle lanes (esp combined with fencing) cause such danger to cyclists.

He also said that he thought there should be widespread support for measures to counteract these issues from mps. Though obv there isn't.

It made me sad.

I saw an HGV driver this morning, driving and reading his papers.

Just throwing something out there, flame me if you will, but 1 possible solution would be to extend bus lanes to make them continuous and redesign all junctions to give priority to buses. Make public transport half the cost it is now. Buses would be fast and convenient, and we would have wide, continuous lanes with priority at junctions. Sure, we'd have to share them with buses like we do already, but i find that the bus lanes are generally a fairly safe place to be.

Haven't seen any stats on collisions in bike lanes, but anecdotally, this would seem to make sense.

Giving the bus absolute priority over everything was something the TfL, under Ken, was very keen to do. Unfortunately, TfL do not have the last word on trunk roads. National government does, and they weren't quite so keen to make the bus king.