Should Scotland be an independent country?

Do Scottish independence advocates feel like they have a societal responsibility towards Scotland, but not the UK?
How about the EU?

I feel responsible for my home city, but not England. Perhaps the UK.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000r35m

Please summarise for us? I stopped paying my tv license when they called the EDL thugs ‘anti-anti facists’ during the BLM demonstrations.

The BBC can suck a dick when it comes to unbiased journalism.

Can you link to this? My Google fu has failed to find it.

Will try find. It was that afternoon that the EDL types got rushed by horse cops in summer 2020 around the cenotaph.

Well I have thoroughly enjoyed reading through the last 10 or so pages of this!

I admit, I cant really add much to what has been really quite well educated discussion on the subject.

What I would say, is that a potential referendum is very unlikely to be decided by educated, researched points with facts and figures, like a lot of this thread has been.

Its going to be which barked slogan or fear mongering is heard the loudest. I suspect "YoU woNT hAvE suRviVed tHe PanDEmic wIthout US!" will be the crux of Westminster's argument and what I am afraid of, is that many Scots will think they are right.

It worries me because it was bullshit and nonsense and "The Vow" that did it last time and I was so very disappointed. Add to that fatigue over the stressful shit over the last decade (Indy 1, Brexit and Covid) and I cant work out if its a good time or not to try again.

What I am positive about is that we need another chance because this "once in a generation" line that is peddled is full on laughable now. But is in the very near future the right time? Maybe it is.

I personally don't think it's the right time. The lead in all of the polls whilst encouraging looks like it would land in 52/48 kind of terrority on the day, and I think it needs to be way more decisive than that

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2020/jun/13/uk-news-live-patel-warns-of-health-and-legal-risks-at-blm-protests-coronavirus

Memorable as twas the day of the Forum 'Durham' ride.

Sounds like a proportional response to an organisation the size of the BBC.

In summary: it describes and discusses the background and origins of the union and indy movement. Then looks at where it is now and where it is heading.

In order for this not to be so divisive I think it would be a good thing (for everyone) if the independence vote required at least a 60% majority.

A major overhaul based on an ice thin majority is just a shitter.

Its going to be which barked slogan or fear mongering is heard the loudest. I suspect "YoU woNT hAvE suRviVed tHe PanDEmic wIthout US!" will be the crux of Westminster's argument and what I am afraid of, is that many Scots will think they are right.

It worries me because it was bullshit and nonsense and "The Vow" that did it last time and I was so very disappointed

Oh yes, "the vow", made by someone with absolutely no authority to bind the UK govt...

In order for this not to be so divisive I think it would be a good thing (for everyone) if the independence vote required at least a 60% majority.

Canada has a law on this with regard to provinces (Quebec) wanting to secede. It requires a "clear majority" which, while not obviously defined, is interpreted to mean a majority of the population, not a plurality of the vote.

There are some other things which would be useful to look at if Scotland did push forward. It also would have helped with the Brexit referendum...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarity_Act

(I'm not saying any of this is the correct way to handle it in the case of Scotland - just food for thought)

For indyref #1 I started off as a no, but had some sympathy for independence. In the end, I ended up voting yes. One part of my calculus was: EU membership for iScotland would likely happen shortly after independence, thus travel/trade etc with former UK would be fine.

Should there be indyref #2, who knows? With everything going on, I don't have the brain space to think about such things. (TBH I am hoping that there isn't going to be a referendum too soon, even though my starting position would be a yes)

Is Johnson giving Gove the brief "charm the Scotts into staying" his way of spiking Gove's guns for the coming leadership contest?

Suggests that Johnson is prioritising his own political survival over the Union if so, and also that he thinks he can ride out losing Scotland.

Johnson is prioritising his own political survival over [insert literally fucking anything here]

I think they just rely on people having the attention span of a goldfish.

If there is one thing that Gove is, its the very opposite of charming.

No end of people telling us we are essentially a burden to England so I think he could definitely ride out "losing" us.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/prince-edward-scotland-independence-queen-b1798558.html

Is this a joke? JFC

I don't know whether I support independence. I
live in Scotland but am English, my employer is in England, my partner lives in England, my family is spread across England, Wales, NI and Australia.

On the other hand, the fucking Tories.

I have no idea what I would do if it happens, my girlfriend is part way through some early career training in a small field and so can't move up here, and if I leave Scotland I don't know whether or not I'll be allowed to move back afterwards. Will there be visas? Or some sort of free travel arrangement? But then the Tories won't allow free travel if Scotland rejoins EU freedom of movement which is obviously a goal.

Essentially as far as I can see, in terms of pure practicalities, it's just as disruptive as sticking a border back in between NI and ROI except fortunately without the historical violence.

Less recent violence at any rate.

What does support mean, in this context?

found out a bit more about this yesterday.

Basically, without the support of the bank of England as a clearing house, you can't use the currency.

And if you did, you'd have your interest rates being set by a foreign country. One that you had just pissed off.

The alternative is to change currency from GBP to something else. This raises at least two interesting questions:

what happens to everyone's mortgages that are now in a foreign currency, subject to foreign interest rates and exchange fluctuations?

what happens to all of the state pensions that are now sort of owed to your citizens by a foreign nation, that are also subject to foreign interest rates and exchange rates. Said foreign nation has no obligation to honour them and there is no international jurisdiction that can force them to.

I suppose you only need to answers to these types of questions if you assume any handover at independence will be as destructive as possible and all attempts at diplomacy will fail.

I assume an operator either commercial or state led will create a secondary debt market for mortgages or the mortgage lenders will just chose to continue to accept their payments in whatever currency is eventually approved and probably pegged to the euro.

Will Westminster stop paying pensions? Maybe a new Scotland won’t accept any portion of uk debt? Maybe we’ll put Trident and all the Scottish based infrastructure on eBay?

It’s telling the questions are what ifs on worst case scenarios.

It’s like you already know that whenever imperialism leaves a place it has to scorch the earth behind it for generations.

Would it be in the (remaining) UK's interests for Scotland to continue to use the £?

I have no idea, finance stuff is something I find catatonically boring so have never read up on it.

They are worst case scenarios, for sure. But that makes them powerful negotiation levers / threats.

Edward, Spanner of the Scots.