What's the point of hi viz?

Maybe it's my fault for trying to have a reasonable discussion on here, shoulda known better

No. By your logic pedestrians, dogs, cyclists or anyone or thing on the road ought to be hi viz to make them more visible.

@hippy is so fat he is bigger than a car, does he get an exemption? I swear loudly and continuously so can I swerve the hi viz too?

they're inherently easier to spot due to their size and noise

Some cars are getting pretty quiet these days.

For me, it's not a discussion about hi-viz or not, but about where does it stop? All my cycling clothes have reflective stripes, I have two rear lights, one steady and one on-off. Same in the front. I still have oncoming cars in urban traffic who need to swerve where you can just see their reaction "oh, shit, where did he come from".

I did some reading when I started commuting and of course you always have studies in favor or against or that are just plain shitty. I think there was one Danish study that suggested flashing lights were more effective than hi vis.

All this doesn't take away that one texting driver can take you out, no matter how much you look like a christmas tree.

The point of high-viz is to placate the cunts in the courtroom that will proportion some blame on the innocent rider that was driven into by a cunt in a car not looking where they were going. Hi-Viz is literally only valid for increasing your compensation after an accident, everything else is bollocks.

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That's the point...some people in.cars don't look carefully..we simply don't want a collision as I'd come out worse off possibly dead. Doesn't matter who's at fault when your life is at risk.
If I look like a twat...so be it I'm happy with my common sense decision.
What anyone else does is up to them..it's not law.

Accidents will always happen..it's all about derisking yourself.
High vis doesnot provide a invisible force field to protect you.
So many drivers are distracted that anything you can do to make your presence felt is.a good thing.. considering how easy and non intrusive hi vis is it just makes sense for Some one who cycles regularly in high traffic areas where provisions for cyclists are minimal.

I'll leave this campaign for greater visibility here.

But surely if drivers have a responsibility to not crash into cyclists, you also have a responsibility to be as visible as possible? Yes, if you look closely enough at that image all the cyclists are visible, and I totally sympathise with the frustrations you have about shitty drivers and poor cycling roads. But I just don't understand why you'd consciously reduce how visible you are to drivers.

Wearing black with no lights is a bit of a dick move, but it's also illegal at night. In the daytime, if a driver cannot see a normally-attired cyclist, what chance do they have of seeing a normally attired toddler who's rushed out between parked cars.

There seems to be a trend at the moment for painting cars matt dark grey; literally tarmac coloured. Why on earth should there be any onus on vulnerable road users to dress up in hi-viz? That said, reflectives are absolutely a good thing, especially on shoes/pedals for nighttime and I personally like to wear tops in a bold (mid-blue/red/green) colour for daytime riding, nothing that I wouldn't be happy wearing into a pub though.

Dark cars are more likely to be involved in accidents.

There is also plenty of advise for pedestrians to wear more visible colours at night.

Part of it is the human brain/eye, the gorilla and the basketball. People who look for cars might not see cyclists. Not an excuse and while this seems to have improved a lot in London, it is not fixed yet.

To me, the minor statistical advantage isn't worth the effect I believe my wearing hivis will have socially:

People may think that its the responsibility of a cyclist to avoid being run over by a driver
People may think that cycling is so dangerous you must take every available precaution to avoid being run over by a driver
People may think that if you don't wear a special jacket then you are responsible for being run over by a driver
People may all start wearing hi-vis, which may decrease the already minor efficacies of hi-vis, meaning the same amount of cyclists get run over by drivers but now we all look stupid as we die
People may normalise wearing hi-vis, expect cyclists to wear hi-vis, and become less able to notice cyclists not wearing hi-vis. Wearing hi-vis may well be a zero sum game. The more visible I am, the less visible others are, until we all wear hi-vis and look stupid as we die.
People may think that cycling is uncool

I don't want to forward any of the above, hence no hi-vis.

The reason that people don't want to have a "reasonable discussion" about hi-vis is that to many even asking the question, or having the same, repeatable, pointless discussion, is in itself a form of deflecting blame, taking up the time of the vulnerable (in this case non car road users) to help assuage the guilt of others, and in the end, doesn't really ever change anyone's opinion.

As a bit of an aside, hi-vis is a funny one as there's no universal hi-vis - it's entirely contextual. It's based on contrast in brightness & colour (it's probably more complicated than that though).

While it's obvious that most street environments mainly consist of shades of grey (how boring), where fluro yellow works, at some times of day with low sun, it might not be the optimal.

Personally, I don't wear any fluro yellow while riding because every time I'd been in an incident with a driver, it's because they haven't looked, rather than haven't been able to make out that I'm a cyclist in their field of view. I can't do anything about that.

True, although reflectives are good in any context.

One habit I've got into is trying to have 2 lights front and back, not just for redundancy, but because research suggests that the rate of divergence of visual angle between light sources is really useful to road users in judging speed/rate of approach.

As far as the original dredge of this thread goes, the cyclist in question would have been much more effective at making himself seen by not drafting quite so closely, rather than wearing a bright top that would may also be obscured.

This is very funny to me.

Sounds like you're going mad. Hoping you're not.

That's a very astute explanation for having two lights front & back.
Does it follow that having the lights as far apart as possible increases the acuity of the driver?
Are there small leds lights that can easily de/attached from brakes/shifters?

I like my knog plus as secondary lights for that kind of thing, work well as main "be seen" lights if I've just grabbed a different bike or whatever, clip onto bags and clothing well too.

As long as i have my lights I'm more comfortable now in my safetyblack casual getup than i ever was in bright cycling gear for London commuting.

I wouldn't however do a daytime ride in all black on bright sunny day unless there's zero possibility of shading.

Things to remember is that everyone risk assessment is different.
You might not want to wear one for various reasons. That fine.
But the person who is wearing one has made a completely rational decision backed up by statistics and common sense.
We would all like to have a situation where by every driver is cautious considerate and vigilant but that isn't going to happen any time soon.
If an accident happens the cyclist is coming worse off.. despite who's fault it is.
Considering the potential life changing injuries any effort to prevent it is worth while. Does matter how much the insurance payout will be.

So I should get an SUV? If you can't beat them join them and all that?

SUV ? Dayglo pink tank would be betterer

Was mandela way the nearest you could park to work? Explains why you cycled the last bit from the parking space when I'd seen you.

But the person who is wearing one has made a completely rational decision backed up by statistics and common sense.

Says who?

And common sense?? Some people's common sense leads them to ride in the gutter thinking its best to be out the way of any drivers, which statistically is the most risky place (according to TfL's 'Pedal Cyclists Casualty data'.)

Best way to get seen is to ride (in whatever clothing you wish), in front of drivers, in their line of sight, checking back regularly to ensure that you're seen.

Check out this guidance about risk assessment for riding https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/769891/national-standard-cycling.pdf

I abhor dayglo clothes. Unless I’ve just dropped a dove on top of some acid, and it’s 1989, and I’m in a derelict warehouse listening to the contents of Evil Eddie Richards’ record box on a mahoosive soundsystem, and there’s a really cosy chillout bit with giant hammocks, fizzy Lucozade sport and I’ve got some thai stick for later.

Wait, why did I come in here again?