Should Scotland be an independent country?

lol fuckit. Unsubscribed. Gone. Finito.

Do they not just become a crown dependency?
If so, it's over rated.

So that's English people living in Scotland. 16% is still high. The view of English people living in England and England itself, isn't measured there but would be interesting to explore.

My initial point was made in response to an all encompassing statement by you of English anti Scots sentiment. I am not aware of any and no doubt you have loads of empirical evidence to back up your assertion. But no, you are "Unsubscribed. Gone. Finito" As good a way to win a discussion as one can possibly imagine.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/adam-ramsay/scotland-isnt-different-its-britain-thats-bizarre

More opinion backed by some facts.

Love that the comments immediately spiral into a linguistic discussion.

As a slight aside...

I'd be curious to see that updated to at least 2015 and also cross referenced with population, manufacture and proximity to natural resources.

Great pic. But what does it show?

You probably want to put the thread on ignore, too. :)

renewable energies use across europe

scots were clearly told in the indy ref "leave the UK , you leave the EU", "your on your own and you wont get back in because spain will veto your entrance" , that surely influenced many peoples decision . now their out through no choice of theirs . I think many see this as a justified reason to have a referendum ? just out of my small circle of friends all the "no" voters now choose "yes". im still wavering but as a london dwelling scot i didnt get a vote last time !

I actually just popped in to post that.

I think it's even more relevant now, in 2017, than it was then in light of the bizarre, delusional, little-Englander driven approach to Brexit.

Now, in addition to Scotland, it looks as though there could be a referendum in Northern Ireland and Wales is looking to get in on the act.

It would make a lot of sense for NI to unite with the Republic and remain in the EU. But is Wales a big enough ecoomy to manage on its own?

Unsurprising as they are the last outposts of England's long dead 'Empire'

Should "England" be whittled down to Wessex?

There is less chance of a border poll than Sinn Fein are making out. It suits them politically- especially with the prospect of another election in the north- but they must understand the numbers aren't on their side at the moment.

Also, there seems to be little or no appetite in the Republic. The main parties aren't interested and there isn't a significant popular movement lobbying from below.

The country I was born in and have lived in and loved all my life is changing way to quickly. Out of the EU well I have got over that although it took a bit of time as the U.K has not fundementaly changed. The possibility of the head being lopped of the U.K is not something I could get over and would fundentaly changes the remaining three nations except maybe northen Ireland. I would have to reidentify with a whole new country I dont think I could manage that or even want to.

Saying I dont wish people well is not exactly what I meant but I don't think the UK is heading towards a good place at present and I wonder if the country is even worth trying to save as the governing class seem to be blind. If this bullet is dodged when will another be fired. We seem to be in a perpetual state of political crisis. Canada or New Zealand is looking quite appealing. That why I feel homeless. Again I feel I have no control or say in anything. the country is being pulled apart by those with agenda I do not share and have never shared. if scotland goes I am seriously thinking about moving abroad for good as I identify with the UK as it currently is, not England, Wales and NI or NEWS. That is sad. Thanks Sturgon but if your party had a made a proper attempt at fundemental consitutional reform (parliaments of equal status for example) rather than the piecemeal devolution that our governing fuckwits think will do, and that had failed I could understand the push for independance. but that has not been pushed for by the SNP. They trot out the line the tories will be in charge til 2030 therefore we should go. I did not vote for the tories either Can I declare independance? Silly arguement. It is bit like us saying putin is going to be power in russia till 2030 so we might as well fire our nukes to unseat him and see if they who they hit.

This is what I don't like about this push for the referendum it is the nuclear option without the inbetween bits to try and put the marriage on a firmer footing and this the U.K government needs alot of help because the people in it are quite blind to reality. I think the 4 nations need abit of marriage counciling. Maybe norway can help, there good at this sort of thing.

Again I feel I have no control or say in anything. the country is being pulled apart by those with agenda I do not share and have never shared.

You should have some sympathy with another scottish indy referendum then!

except no attempt has been made to try and reform the UK these things take time 2 years is no where near enough.

The U.K. Is fucked, it won't be reformed in our lifetime.

Amen.

After Indyref the UK government proposed to grant much greater powers to Holyrood. The 'devo max' promises, and the threat of leaving the EU, swung the vote. Westminster then backtracked on the reform you want. It wasn't big news, except in Scotland... http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13872309.SNP_MP__monstrous_deceit_of_broken_devolution_promises_will_accelerate_Scotland_s_UK_exit/

The solution to all of this, Brexit, indyref, was always for England to leave the UK and do it's own thing. It's not Scotland that's moving away from the UK, you know, it's England that is moving away from the post-war social democratic settlement. Has been since the 80's, determined to drag the rest of the UK with it.

I'm sorry you feel so disenfrancshised. Though the world is a constantly changing place. Citizens need to adapt and that sometimes means a change of national character. It can be made into a positive thing or a negative one. (50's Germany or Pakistan are examples of both)

There has been constant pressure for increased powers however all the really important stuff is still 'reserved' to Westminster. Have a skim through this:
http://www.parliament.scot/EducationandCommunityPartnershipsresources/Your_Guide_Mar_2016.pdf

Yes it's Scottish government but it's up to date (2016) and is written objectively. Something lacking in lots of media coverage.

Some Scots feel disenfranchised too. (45%) at the last tally.

The argument isn't about the Tories. It's about Scotland getting the government Scotland voted for. It's about democracy.

Governments formed at Westminster often do not reflect the majority vote in Scotland. With independence, Scotland would always get the government it voted for.

Regarding reforms, which in particular were you taking about? From what I gather most reforms recently have been scuppered by Tory/labour peers disagreeing. Which other parties have suceeded with any reforms in recent times?

A second Indy ref isn't a nuclear action. It's been brewing literally since the last one finished. Google the now infamous 'vow'.

Add in the 'the only way to stay in the EU is to vote No' angle and it's little wonder.

If you want to feel empowered in a more vibrant more tolerant society ride up. It's braw here.

Seems a bit harsh on Wales. They voted to leave the EU too, why should they get left behind.

Article highlights the dangers of May treating Sturgeon as a petulant child. This barb in particular entertained me for its incision:

"...we’re free to agree or not about whether Scotland’s best interests are served by independence. What no one has any right to do is condescend Nicola Sturgeon by questioning her sincerity. She is not just an outstandingly bold and smart politician, but one of conviction as well.

Perhaps eventually the Home Counties will learn to respect her for that, though I guess she’ll need to win two Wimbledons, two Olympic golds, a US Open and a Davis Cup to even come close."

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-nicola-sturgeon-scotland-indyref2-independence-europe-theresa-may-hypocrite-a7629686.html

Apologies to the non-FBers (although it may work anyway).

https://www.facebook.com/TheIndependentOnline/videos/10154590209531636/?hc_ref=NEWSFEED