Should Scotland be an independent country?

Wales is just as beautiful as Scotland and a lot bloody nearer. Plus - Bara Brith and Welsh cakes. Just sayin'

I am biased, but then that doesn't seem to stop anyone else here from weighing in.

"Sadly the Yes vote failed me with currency, first of all. I do not believe the currency options they hope for are compatible with the Scotland they propose."

^ this

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/09/16/a-risk-assessment-for-future-of-the-uk/

I'll try to summarise her points without the volatile language;

If the polls weren’t so close would they have made their ‘vow’? If they planned it all along, why wait till two days before polling? If they didn't, why should Scots believe they'll be motivated to see this unloved policy through the stormy year ahead?

Because the Devo-max proposal been made at the eleventh hour, without costings or any chance for questions, its implementation is impossible by Spring thanks to a House of Commons Committee which decided further devolution of UK taxes to Scotland would require the consent of the rest of the UK. That means a nationwide debate and parliamentary assent -not assured since many English MPs object to granting any further powers.

This (and the calls for more power by Ireland and Wales that Riddoch speculates) will take years to resolve. The UK will also have a General Election and an in/out European referendum. The proposed Devo-max timetable is impossible.

Why did the media not ask Cameron any of the searching questions that have been constantly asked of the Yes campaign’s 9-month old white paper? How much will his plans cost? Do the people of Scotland actually want it? How can the proposed devolution of Housing Benefit be achieved when it's about to be subsumed into the Universal Credit system? Which of the various Unionist offers are the three leaders even talking about?

Cameron said the UK is special -- "This is not any old country; this is the United Kingdom" -- and went on to list the pensions, passports, a welfare state and health service British subjects have created together. Almost every aspect of that "offer" is currently under attack from his own government.

Every modern social democracy in Europe has pensions, passports, a welfare state and a health service. Those services are what states provide. A UK-free Scotland will provide the same.

Thanks for that Iain.

I've read bits here and there, including this thread, to inform myself of what is going on. I obviously have formed opinions but haven't and won't be sharing them anywhere, except....

How desperate and needy is that offer? It's like the rejected partner, tears and snot streaming down their face, crying that they can change. They will change, they can be better, please don't leave me here, please don't take the dog.

Fucking pathetic and if anything absolute fodder for the Yes campaign.

Roll on Thursday, it is going to be interesting to see the actual result after all this polling and prediction.

Also: historical precedent.

After the 1979 referendum a Scottish Assembly was promised and never delivered. Why would we believe it now?

http://nationalcollective.com/2014/09/16/richard-ashrowan-i-am-not-scottish-but-i-will-be-immensely-proud-to-be-a-scottish-citizen/#sthash.S1pJKBIK.dpuf

Riddoch nails it. It would be impossible to deliver what they are proposing (whatever that may actually be), so the only conclusion to draw is that they have zero intention of doing so.

Needless to say, that won't go down well when Scotland realises (at least that part that doesn't already realise it) that they have been lied to, so presumably this is a last, desperate gamble, with their best hope being to punt the consequences down the road for a few years, and hope that the Scots become less bolshy in the meantime.

Motorbikes are more my thing, Would like to tour Scotland but other options keep coming up in the group I tour with and the season is short so I haven't made it up there yet.

What also makes me cringe is the sentiment from Westminster trio that says -

"We love you, dont leave us, please stay, we'll be heartbroken"

but

"well, if you leave, it's forever, you can't ever take it back.
We won't want you if 51% of you say no at this particular point in time."

Contradictory somewhat, no? What happens if in ten years time, the Scots collectively say "actually, we're sorry, we'd like to get back together. Remember you said you loved us?"
Are the unionist parties saying that they want to stay together as the UK - but if the Scots decide to leave once, they can never go back? Sounds like a tantrum to me more than anything else.

Or - just creating fear in people's minds... like an abusive husband telling his battered wife that her life is fucked if she dares to leave him.

Slightly trolling with that last comment, I admit :-)

All the 'this is DIVORCE 4EVER' crap grates with me too. Leaving aside that no country that has gained independence has ever asked to reunify, there is precisely nothing to stop our successors 25, 50, 100 years from now from reunifying if it is what both nations wanted. If (as an admittedly ridiculous example) Ireland wanted to become part of the UK again, and we were minded to have them, there would be nothing to prevent it.

What also makes me cringe is the sentiment from Westminster trio that says -

We love you, dont leave us, please stay, we'll be heartbroken

but

if you leave, it's forever, you can't ever take it back.
We won't want you if 51% of you say no at this particularly point in time.

Contradictory somewhat, no? What happens if in ten years time, the Scots collectively say "actually, we're sorry, we'd like to get back together. Remember you said you loved us?"
Are the unionist parties saying that they want to stay together as the UK - but if the Scots decide to leave once, they can never go back? Sounds like a tantrum to me more than anything else.

Would you prefer, 'Go ahead and experiment with your freedom, if you miss us and decide you want the old days back we'll be waiting for you'.

The only reason they'd want to come back is if the whole thing goes tits up, what other reason could there possibly be. They're not going to look at the rest of us suffering without the oil and messed up by successive conservative governments and think 'we should get involved and help the rUK back on it's feet'.

I think we're going to end up being very competitive with Scotland if they do gain independence, if we're really not better together and we can't really get away from each other then it's going to be messy.

I could see Scotland doing very well with the right circumstances, but will the rUK facilitate this after independence, not likely.

there is precisely nothing to stop our successors 25, 50, 100 years from now from reunifying if it is what both nations wanted.

Exactly. The countries were separate before, what was it, 1703? Nothing to stop them reunifying if a majority want it.

If (as an admittedly ridiculous example) Ireland wanted to become part of the UK again

You do get some fools occasionally talking about Ireland rejoining the Commonwealth, but never do you hear about Ireland going back to Westminster rule.

I think we're going to end up being very competitive with Scotland if they do gain independence, if we're really not better together and we can't really get away from each other then it's going to be messy.

I could see Scotland doing very well with the right circumstances, but will the rUK facilitate this after independence, not likely.

Really? Are we preoccupied as a nation with fucking up our neighbouring states and close trading partners at the moment?

Would you prefer, 'Go ahead and experiment with your freedom, if you miss us and decide you want the old days back we'll be waiting for you'.

But they said they loved me! That they couldnt live without me! That they'd be heartbroken! I do want the old days back - I didnt realise what I had until it was gone. But now they wont take me back - were they just lying all along?

I realise my last post overlooks the possibility that both nations will do well, develop in similar ways and decide that the extra cost of being separate is not worth it so re-unite. I try to avoid that kind of wishful thinking based on experience.

Leaving aside that no country that has gained independence has ever asked to reunify

Except for Scotland, obvs.

Oh.

As an Englishman who wouldn't mind us staying together, the unquestionable embarrassing shiteness of the No campaign, and comparison of our leading representatives, has the only mildly redeeming positive shared with most of the rest of the 'Better Together' camp in that now they too know what it feels like to support Tottenham.

An independent Scotland unified for 300 years and is now deciding on whether to take its independence back.

But they said they loved me! That they couldnt live without me! That they'd be heartbroken! I do want the old days back - I didnt realise what I had until it was gone. But now they wont take me back - were they just lying all along?

As usual the queen delivered one of the best lines 'I hope they think very carefully'. If the queen said that to me I'd assume she was pissed off.

The threat of heartbreak is a subtle warning that there will be no going back. Once someone breaks your heart you only take them back for revenge.

Lack of proportional representation fucks with all of us in the UK. Geographic distance is secondary to the political distance and it's not only the Scots that have felt this.

I hope Scotland independent has a better democracy, It's a shame this hasn't happened within Britain.

Also... good on them for spotting bullshit when they see it. The 'No' noise reminds me of the desperate attempts of the Conservatives to avoid a coalition ("chaos in the streets" etc).

You'll have to refresh my memory, when did Scotland and England previously reunify?