Israel / Palestine

Jonathan Freedland's latest column in the Guardian makes a lot of the same argument:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/20/benjamin-netanyahu-hamas-israel-prime-minister

Thanks

Thank you for the article and very measured response, it can be easy to forget how fucking brutal this all is when it becomes an abstract discussion point.

Edit: @infmz too

Imagine what would happen if similar fly posting happened in a Jewish area.

It’s possible that in the reporting of the killings the reports were passed down to leaders and media worded like this:

100s killed, civilians burned and decapitated, babies and children too.

Children and babies killed, but not necessarily decapitated, people immediately focus on the decapitated babies part.

Should we call it troubles?

What are troubles anyway?

Weren't the Israeli claims debunked. But the cutting the power and fuel to Gaza were causing infant deaths in hospitals.

Maybe there should be posters put up with pictures and names of those Palestinian and aid workers killed by Israeli bombing of the designated escape route.

i'm also confused by the comment about calling these incidents wars.

armed dispute concerning territory / sovereignty / right to self determination seems to fit the common understanding of war

I agree it fits the definition of a war, it’s a semantic issue that perhaps matters in how the issue is perceived. Lynx’ mention of The Troubles is a good example.

I’m tired but I’ll find the words tomorrow to elaborate.

Mentioned troubles as that was what happened in Northern Ireland but I never understood why it was called that just that the situation was called troubles and what is happening in Palestine is similar.

Think the Europeans called the troubles the northern Ireland conflict. Before then there were uprisings I believe. But probably wrong.

i think NI situation was called the troubles as uk govt didn't want to admit that there was a civil war going on.

Yes, cutting the power and fuel to Gaza is awful.

And yes, there should be posters put up with pictures and names of Palestinians and aid workers killed.

So should we ignore atrocities on Israel’s side?
Deaths and killings on both side are awful, unfortunately people try and make their point by dismissing or disregarding the horrors on either side.

Anyway, the Israeli massacres can’t have happened, as one of the Hamas leaders said that they don’t target civilians in the video linked previously. So don’t know what all the fuss is about.

https://youtu.be/zF-8porJBJ8?si=FOIRVthrKEIPVJXz

They discuss authenticity about half way through.

Settlers attack and kill Palestinians in the West Bank

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67173344

So a bunch of UK cyclists have set up a bike-related charity raffle to raise money for Medical Aid for Palestinians. Hopefully I don't violate any rules by posting the link here:

https://www.justgiving.com/page/cyclists4palestine

£5 = 1 entry.

Prizes so far include Wizard Works' new Hobgob hip pack and a Wald 137-sized basket bag from Lucas from BP.com's bike collab brand Future Projects. More to come, apparently.

The Troubles as a name is surely a bit of political sleight of hand? Other names might be seen as acknowledging that there was a conflict of interests between British citizens that was leading to violence, and when you start digging into that it gets messy for the state pretty quickly.

I think you are right about the name, the whole conflict imo was an invasion of another country.

Sort of reminds me of what is going on Israel.

"Talk softly and carry a big stick" seems to be the summary of Joe Biden in Israel

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/10/israel-hamas-war-how-joe-biden-bigfooted-benjamin-netanyahu.html

$14 Bn of US aid for Israel in the national security budget is a reasonably large stick, i guess.

As explored above, my point about the names for the wars is that they help obfuscate historical responsibility and outcomes of each conflict. Calling it the Gaza War hides the fact that it’s Israel v. Palestine, and definitely doesn’t convey the disproportionate number of Palestinian deaths. It’s purposely using language to frame a conflict in a more favourable light to one party, e.g., the Irish War of Independence vs. The Troubles, or The US Invasion of Iraq vs. The Iraq War, or The Gaza War vs. The Palestine Massacre.

The war in Iraq left over 300,000 Iraqis dead (average estimate) and some 8,000 NATO soldiers dead, but at least a proportion of the former were killed by Iraqis targeting and killing other Iraqis. In the case of Israel v. Palestine the vast majority of dead Palestinians weren’t and aren’t being killed by other Palestinians. It’s a defining characteristic of this conflict, and the name should reflect it, imo.

Hope that makes more sense. New parent, still thinking through tar.

Despite the rain the demonstration today was absolutely massive. The Guardian reported 100k people based on the Met assessment. I've been to Wembley which holds 90k so this assessment was clearly nonsense, it was a roadblock from Marble Arch to Piccadilly. The organisers were reporting 300k so the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

so the IDF strategy (as was clear from early on) is to obliterate north Gaza including Gaza City and force those who can or will move into a hell hole in southern Gaza.

there will soon be circa 2m people in a tiny area where there isn't even running water.

C4 pulling apart the hospital attack story

https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/­1715437877604049094?t=TBSmi-nYRGhV0W7JJo­VX1w&s=19

I found the directional evidence quite compelling, until I saw this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6HcaYiuCK8

Careful because there is a video being circulated that ‘proves’ it was a hamas rocket that was not filmed this year. Can you confirm this source you have shared does not reference it? I’m just asking because I can’t tell tbh.

https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/video-missile-strike-near-gaza-hospital-predates-october-2023-war-2023-10-18/

The WSJ news team is generally pretty thorough.