Technological development = scraping perfectly fine frames?

Well ! I've stirred things up more than I expected.

I have some urgent jobs to do now, but I'll respond at greater length later.

To add to the mix on this- access to credit. I suspect, going back a few years (decades?), that kit was determined by what you had spare month-to-month, and how long you were prepared to save. It seems there is easier credit is available nowadays, giving quick access to valuable equipment. Less obvious on bikes perhaps, but jumps out when looking at the quality of cars in my area. Ultimately shifts the decision from what people need to what people want.

Other thought - I'm not sure there's huge difference year-on-year in performance, but there has been a real improvement in bike design & performance over the last ten years. Not road, but have recently gone from a good pre-2010 hardtail MTB to a good mid-range full suspension, and the difference is impressive. And I do find riding more fun as a result - smoother trails are faster, which gets me my adrenaline fix, and can tackle more tecky/steeper trails without quite so much fear. So I think my splurge is justified :).

What does it cost to do a session at Glasgow? I know that Lee Valley kinda self selects for these types of people, since the fees price out the large majority of riders who would turn up on less expensive bikes.

Also, FWIW I'm probably an outlier but haven't been ever been a KOM chaser.

For my own sins I have upgraded my (older than me) Saracen Road bike with a NOS disc brake fork since it makes a lot of sense for an all weather commuter, allows me to run significantly better mudguards (with eyelets) and a front rack, and swap to 650b at some point, but I generally agree with the consensus that force obsolescence has become far more prevalent in bicycle kit over the last ~10 years

Accreditation parts 1&2 are £15 and 3&4 are £30 I think (I don’t deal with money). Open sessions are around £10 or 11 an hour, coached sessions about £25 or something for 2 hours.

Think we are a fair bit cheaper than Lee Valley. Not sure how Manchester’s or Derby’s prices compare.

I’d definitely say most of our regulars are middle to upper class but isn't most competitive cycling like that?

And I do find riding more fun as a result - smoother trails are faster, which gets me my adrenaline fix, and can tackle more tecky/steeper trails without quite so much fear.

I find the opposite. Trails that are easy and boring on the mtb become more challenging, and therefor more enjoyable, when ridden fixed.

Similarly, I could ride further and probably faster on road with gears and a freewheel but I’d rather ride fixed as it’s more challenging.

I’d go as far as to say that purposefully not using the most capable kind of bike for whatever terrain I’m on is central to my entire cycling philosophy.

Australia

explains a lot

In praise of the EC1 MAMIL; they do buy but don't use much a whole host of expensive kit that often appears on Ebay for an oik like me to purchase at a mere fraction of it's original selling price.

Long live the middle aged crisis !

I really cannot understand why non racing cyclists think it's important to update their bikes

The problem with that sort of statement (same goes for the Cat 4s on 10k race bikes) is where do you draw the line, in terms of tech and budget? Within reason your choice(s) are debatable and essentially down to personal preferences. A 7-speed freewheel will seem ancient to a 12-speed EPS owner, but it's a decadent and unnecessary frivolity to someone who rides a 1940s fixed wheel machine.

I'm not completely alien to the sentiment, though, I am not that fussed about the latest kit or the inability to afford it atm, since what I have works for what I do.

Interesting discussion. As someone who finds everything "bike" related too expensive, what would one say is the best "value" bike. Say I don't care about newer technology and am not racing. Alu frame with rim brake alu wheels and an 'older' ten speed groupset?

I'd say you could make an argument for alu, carbon or steel if you want value, depending on your preference and use. Only thing I'd argue strongly for is disc brakes, as it stops your wheel rims being worn down over time. Generally I'd be looking at bikes speed with shimano 105, or last seasons ultegra.

A £5k bike is a cheaper way to get around than a car.

Exercise can be done with body weight and running if needed.

I have done it all, I have it all and every penny spent on a bicycle is better than spent on a car.

I think there would be a fairly clear line in terms of durability; so whilst a 7 speed block is more advanced than a fixed wheel, it doesn't fundamentally change the durability of a drivetrain.

Drivetrains from (9?) speed onwards has compromised durability for weight and brought little material advantages to the average cyclist. If you can't make it smoothly up a hill on 9 speed STIs, then 12 speed EPS isn't going to make a difference. Similar things with BBs, headsets, handlebar widths etc.

I don't know if it is a valid line in terms of is it a useful distinction, but I think the distinction is there.

Also @mtsdw I would theoretically suggest disc brakes, since they mean that instead of wearing out and replacing the rim you just replace the disc, but they are an ever evolving minefield of standards which is funny given the context

Drivetrains from (9?) speed onwards has compromised durability for weight and brought little material advantages to the average cyclist.

I think one exception to that is the ability to run a 1x9 drivetrain and therefore have the weight saving and extra simplicity of not running a front mech and shifter. 1x7 would be fairly limiting in terms of ratios or would give you fairly big jumps over a wide ratio. I ride on old ten-speed (2x5) sometimes and the jumps between sprockets in either chainring is so big you sometimes have to ride it like a singlespeed i.e., the cadence is way too high or too low.

Agreed on the disc brakes, never thought about it because I live in a flat pancake country and don’t do enough mileage (or don’t use my brakes enough :p ) to wear out rims.

I think a nice bike has to 'feel' nice, too.

I have never raced and I never will. I can keep up with most riders on a club run (even the faster ones) but I just love getting out on my bike by myself mainly. I like the high-end kit because I love the technology, brand history and it's an accessible way for me to have a nice 'toy' without dropping crazy money on a 2nd car.

For me, this is how a bike feels nice;

. The correct size for you (obviously)
. Quality bar tape
. Compact drops
. Super sharp brakes with next to no travel in the lever before you start braking
. Metallic 'clunk' in the shifters, and being able to feel the chain move throughout the whole frame
. Rigid bottom-bracket when climbing
. Super low rolling resistance when coasting
. Noisey freehub - I love pedaling backward to make it noisier when I'm just coasting along

If you whack Dura Ace mechanical on a CAAD10 frameset and a decent quality wheelset, maybe Campag Shamal at a minimum, and then a set of GP4000 tyres with the correct pressure and the bike fitting correctly, this will probably ride as nice as something maybe £5k?

Obviously, it won't be as aero, but for someone who is just doing the occasional club run or even chasing those Strava times, it would be perfect.

I guess it depends on what your goal is, what your wallet can handle, and even as far as your world-view and what you value from life/objects.

Wanting a bike that looks nice or has an Italian pedigree is still a goal to be met. If Ribble made a bike that rode 100% the same as a Colnago C64 , but 1/2 the price, I still wouldn't want it.

Strange how we value things, I guess.

Buy a second hand road bike for a weeks wages after tax, then get out and ride. If you have any spare money after that, spend it on food, train tickets and decent bibs.

Here's an advert from Coureur from 1962.

It assumes a completely different attitude from today - Frank was proud that his Dad's frames made in the 1920's were still coming back to him for refurbishment. Today those frames would still be sought after, as is any Carpenter frame.

Ad failed to load - I'll try again

1 Attachment

And while I'm here.......

'Disc brakes are a good idea because the rims don't wear out'

In the past I must have thrown away dozens of rims, nearly all smashed up or badly dented, just one or two because of brake wear - it does happen, but assuming the brake blocks a cleaned promptly when they pick up swarf, it's an unusual cause for scrapping a rim.

Multiple sprockets above seven

Well I really prefer a five block, but I'll tolerate six. Used with a double at the front for non TT purposes. How does one manage with so few sprockets? Easy, surely you have more than one back wheel, so you change the wheel to the one with the appropriate block for the ride you're about to do. For example if you're going to ride a time trial on the Bath Road, an 18 tooth bottom sprocket will be fine and even then you'll only use that for warming up, similarly, with the HDW chain gang from Twyford to Windsor if you used anything bigger than 18 you would be straight off the back. Touring and hilly road races would need other blocks. To attempt to have a 'one size fits all' solution doesn't make sense to me.

It's clear to me that the bike industry is now keen on built in obsolescence in a way that people like Frank Carpenter would never have dreamed of, although I do remember Dave Russell saying to me "Bloody CTC, they buy one bike and expect it to last a lifetime!"

In the past I must have thrown away dozens of rims, nearly all smashed up or badly dented, just one or two because of brake wear - it does happen, but assuming the brake blocks a cleaned promptly when they pick up swarf, it's an unusual cause for scrapping a rim.

three years of daily london commuting and a season of cross will do it. i'm really not sold on the stopping power of disc brakes (is it just me?), but rim wear is a real thing.

This thread is hilarious.

and a season of cross

Well, that certainly could be a factor - it's outside my own experience.

is it just me?

Yes

maybe my bikes don't have a short enough wheelbase to really notice things like that

Dunno about you lot but my bikes are all old and I still manage to scrape the frames when trying to store them in a compact way. Bastard modern pedals fucking up my paint.