That Starmer fella...

Cass came to that conclusion by excluding the vast majority of existing research and evidence, on the basis of that evidence not having had blind tests.

Which is impossible as you cannot blind test puberty, either it happens or does not. And the consequences are already known, suicide rate trans identifying individuals is far higher than standard, and regret rate amongst those who do transition is far lower than regret rate of hip surgery in later life or corrective eye surgery (LASIK).

Even the Goodlaw project has come out against the ban and has a high court case winding through the system, as if you ban a drug from a segment of the population entirely because of a single, protected, characteristic, then that's against the human rights act. Puberty blockers are only banned if the individual reports any sign of gender dysphoria, they're still available to everyone else for any reason whatsoever, hence it's pure discrimination.

I would recommend this piece, very specifically, on psychology / medication in gender dysphoria (which I use as the medical term only).

https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v43/n23/bernadette-wren/diary

Hannah Barnes’ book Time To Think is also valuable, albeit more sceptical.

Thanks to you and @Velocio for the info and perspectives on this. It's not something that has been in my circle of experience.

I will keep my thoughts on any rights or wrongs out of this as I'm not sure it would be helpful but I struggle to see how a trial could be run fairly.

From a process viewpoint, it would be interesting to know is how many prepubescent people are currently on these blockers in the uk compared to the number of people in the average mass clinical trial, I would imagine small.

Another problem from a trial pov is how do you find minors to take part in a clinical trial like this where they don't have personal agency to make a decision and those who can get parental permission would they then be willing to be given placebos?

I would expect the NHS or drug companies have data for all sorts of stuff including standardised bone and brain development for the general population so why does a trial have to be double blind if you have baseline data to work from?

... would they then be willing to be given placebos?

You're talking about a double-blind trial, which is the gold standard, but is obviously not always feasible for medical situations where it's pretty obvious whether the procedure has taken place.

Where a double-blind isn't possible, there are other sort of trial that can also give good results - they just need potentially more care given to the statistical analysis and potential confounding factors.

Let me paint a far bigger picture... if you have time...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1eWIshUzr8

That's an adult... with little to no support from the NHS.

In the UK, most trans people are actually DIY... they literally will do it themselves, because the Gender Identity Clinics have either been closed, or underfunded to the point that there are 19 year waiting lists... I know, because I'm on one.

There is no access to support via the GP, that's a referral... to a GIC, potentially in a different city, wherein you will go on a waiting list if ever you're even acknowledged.

So most trans people, still talking about adults here, have to DIY.

Let's look at what DIY is:

• https://diyhrt.wiki/
  
• https://diyhrt.info/
  
• https://hrtcafe.net/
  
• https://transharmreduction.org/
  
• https://transfemscience.org/
  
• https://gtrr.artemislena.eu/
  
  

I kid you not... the majority of trans people are ordering raw drugs over the internet in a form that they can obtain, and basically cooking this stuff up themselves if they need to, and then self-administering injections, tablets, gels, patches.

Whilst also doing the mental health thing, without support, and crowdfunding for hair removal, top surgery, or whatever is applicable.

For the transmasc you need Testosterone, which thanks to sports doping is a controlled substance, so the transmasc take even bigger risks.

Then from doing all of this you have to monitor your blood levels to keep safe...

• https://www.medichecks.com/
  
• https://randoxhealth.com/en-GB/in-clinic/female-hormone-test
  
• https://transharmreduction.org/blood-tests
  
  

So trans people, cooking up their meds, discreetly and privately seeking surgery and crowdfunding the money (#mutualaid), and striving to cope with degrading mental health and a lack of counselling/therapy and as a result no medication for depression and mental health things... also have to be endocrinologists and to understand how to navigate the risks involved.

Oh... and transwomen are women... what does that mean? It means a transwoman can get breast cancer, except the NHS won't recognise the person as a woman and screen them for breast cancer because their record says their male and they haven't got a Gender Recognition Certificate... which they can't get because they're on a GIC waiting list that perpetually is lengthened. Similar thing works for transmasc, they too won't receive the correct health care.

The result is that in the UK, still talking about adults, it is effectively a full and complete removal of all health care and support... despite paying full taxes, nothing being illegal, and all the things above that I've mentioned being available to the rest of the population so long as they do not have a "gender dysphoria".

And yet... not one of these people will choose not to transition, just as not one gay or lesbian person was suddenly not gay or lesbian just because it was criminalised, couldn't be taught, etc.

And that... is just the adults.

For the trans youth, I'm in a Discord of hundreds of trans parents, and you can absolutely be sure that every one of them will go to jail supporting their children, you cannot comprehend the horror that is happening to trans youth and their families in this country, right now, due to the policies the Tories bought in as part of their culture war.

Labour has blood on their hands for every day that the ban is in place. The stories I read from elsewhere in the community are horrifying and deeply upsetting. And everyone is so frightened, so afraid, so scared to be visible, daren't write to an MP or a newspaper, this is in the UK... WTF is wrong with people, just let people be, it's just body autonomy, let people decide for themselves and deny them nothing for their choice.

The anger is so very real.

People are literally medicating themselves, excluded from health care, and committing suicide. The most vulnerable people.

It's not even a debatable topic IMHO... anyone who wants this for anyone else needs to seriously look in the mirror and consider who they are.

It also depends what you're testing and why. Is it efficacy, side effects or treatment paths?

It strikes me as a layman that the test is; a. puperty blockers at <18yo Vs 18yo for young people who choose to transition, b. puperty blockers at <18yo vs no blockers for those who choose not to transition. Rather than any double blind stuff.

But TBH having worked adjacent to clinical trials in a previous life this whole area is frought with technical terms with specific meanings that the media and laypeople are generally totally ill equipped to understand.

Here is a link someone posted to the Yale Law School review that I found interesting and useful
https://law.yale.edu/yls-today/news/report-addresses-key-issues-legal-battles-over-gender-affirming-health-care

why does a trial have to be double blind if you have baseline data to work from?

Worth stating that Cass says these trials don't need to be double blind. The University of York (rather than Cass) was responsible for saying whether a study was or wasn't included, and they say they included around 60% of the existing papers - though it is fair to say that they only found 2% were of sufficiently high quality. They also say they didn't exclude on the basis of double blinding, which is as we all know not possible when a drug changes something physically obvious:

Blinding is a separate issue. It means that either the patient or the
researcher does not know if the patient is getting an active treatment
or a ‘control’ (which might be another treatment or a placebo).
Patients cannot be blinded as to whether or not they are receiving
puberty blockers or masculinising / feminising hormones, because the
effects would rapidly become obvious. Good RCTs can be conducted
without blinding.

The University of York’s systematic review search did not identify any
RCTs, blinded or otherwise, but many other studies were included. Most
of the studies included were called ‘cohort studies’. Well-designed
and executed high quality cohort studies are used in other areas of
medicine, and the bar was not set higher for this review; even so the
quality of the studies was mostly only assessed as moderate.

(source: https://cass.independent-review.uk/home/publications/final-report/final-report-faqs/)

sufficiently high quality

Pretty sure this relates to levels of evidence hierarchy doesn't it? Which from my very limited understanding has a specific meaning rather than what you'd take away from an OED definition.

Again I think people have got to be really careful trying to read things they're not equipped to understand.

[CW suicidal ideation]

Labour has blood on their hands for every day that the ban is in place.

For anyone doubting this, even disregarding all the hate and external abuse Trans people are subjected to (which, intentionally or otherwise this decision will feed), they are massively more likely to suffer from Suicidal ideation and action

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9844943/

https://theconversation.com/trans-youth-are-significantly-more-likely-to-attempt-suicide-when-gender-dysphoria-is-met-with-conversion-therapy-than-with-hormone-treatment-207592

I've just got back from a trans pride weekend in Manchester with my kid, lots of lovely people about, but also loads of stalls offering support of various kinds to trans folk of all ages, many of them trying to reduce the horrific suicide rate in the community.

The Cass report is trash, the only people citing it approvingly are transphobes, and people who’ve been gulled into thinking it’s not trash by our transphobic press.

Not sure which bracket Wes falls into. Could well be that he falls into a niche third category of ‘nihilistic little prick who’ll do anything to curry favour with the right wing press’.

not banning them is the right answer. like you've said they've been used for decades. I don't see how it's even a question that needs to be asked tbqfh

Re: Wesley

transphobe

nihilistic little prick who’ll do anything to curry favour with the right wing press’

Why not both?

The answer was staring me in the face all along

Thanks for this. Often things are reduced to simple black or white issues when they rarely are.

Thanks for this, was insightful, I had no idea that self medication for this topic was a thing

Anyone familiar with menopause treatment will know the tactics employed here are what caused thousands of women to suffer, entirely preventable menopause, because of poorly interpreted science and political hysteria

Hormone science is remarkably simple, understood, reversible and risk free. You can (and people do) make estrogen in a bathtub with basic lab equipment. Hormonal variance occurs in us all, it’s why some start puberty young, some older, some go bald, some don’t. More importantly you can change those things by adding and removing it.

It’s why they’re safe for cis kids, and prescribed to them, be it to block puberty, raise t, help with period side effects, or generally increase their gender congruence.

it’s however, portrayed as the opposite because simply, anything that benefits women or challenges bio essentialist views of gender and sex are undesirable to patriarchy. Sexism in medicine is widely documented. It doesn’t get funded, it gets discouraged or, more often than not, the government commissions research to find a desired result to back up their policy objective then uses political power over medical boards to discourage or devalue further research on the topic

It wasn’t until litterally 5 years ago transdermal hrt finally lost the politically charged falsehood that it induced blood clotting. Menopausal women could finally, easily ask their doctor for a simply product that helped them sleep, feel empowered and helped with gender dysphoria, without battling with the gp or being told they were cuckoo.

This sort of political intervention, against the advice of the civil service, medical board and existing government research is purely ideological. It’s why anyone trying to rationally argue for it seems so crackers, it’s why liberal people watching it are so confused. It’s bonkers.

Labour were supposed to be a step away from government messing with our lives over political wedges, yet here they are, 20 days in office, wasting political energy on this. For what? Most people see the state getting mixed up in their child’s healthcare and wretch at the idea. Most people wretch at the idea of lgbt kids being singled out as different. You got Stella creasy rebelling against the front bench and he’s not even bought it to parliament!

Not usually a double poster but this is abhorrent.

https://x.com/RosieDuffield1/status/1813168533435740235

Impossible to read this and not see bigotry and hate speech. many gay users here are old enough to remember this same line being used to silence them as children, to force them through childhoods of repression and bullying. Maybe even leave them locked in abusive situations at home with no way to talk about it to guardians and teachers.

To see a politician, a labour one no less, so bold to say this stuff with a full chest. Shows how much the window has shifted with the labour government supporting restrictions on healthcare driven by the ideological stance in Rosie’s tweet. Not by science, not by experts, not by data, but by a 2020 version of Anita Bryant and her gay fears.

Wesley will talk about “stopping conversion therapy for trans people” in the kings speech today. But he’s also gone on record to support the cass review which argues, amongst other things, for talking therapy and alternative exploration on top of the existing barriers and waiting times for trans children, but also reviewed for the 18-25’s. His party also normalises, hateful, backwards views above which they themselves are conversation therapy rhetoric. The leader, Keir himself, has gone on record to say kids cannot know they’re gay, that trans women are not women or “a secret third thing”. All of this is conversion therapy, denialism that trans people are people, women, men, non binary. It’s impossible to reconcile their rhetoric about conversion therapy, while seeing their actions. It’s not different from the conservatives lip service to “fixing the issue” while looting and abusing in actions.

if this doesn’t highlight where the “debate” is centred around, I’m not sure what will.

I have a slightly different take on Cass because I simply can't find a higher evidence base, despite the fact that I don't like her conclusions. I have a feeling this is why Wes has gone along with it. It is gross, but I at least understand the logic and if you were feeling charitable you could call it 'evidence based'.

But Rosie Duffields' comments are straight up vile. She should be kicked out of the party for this. She won't be, but she should be. She is a bigot.

"No meaningful understanding of gender identity" she says, whilst force-feeding a child cisnormativity like a fois gras goose.

Duffield is an absolute shit, one who's too thick, and whose hatred is too immediate, to be able to conceal their bigotry under a respectable veneer. That she's no longer an outright pariah in the party says it all really.

Kent MP expressing Kentish views.

Who knew.

blocking puberty blockers isn’t even a cass recommendation, Wes is doing it because he’s ideologically aligned, or thinks enacting policy that is ideologically aligned is politically savvy. Either way makes 0 difference to the kids it harms and is not backed by data, only christo conservative rhetoric.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jul/12/ban-on-childrens-puberty-blockers-motivated-by-ex-health-secretarys-personal-view

She’s articulating labour front bench policy, it’s vile and gross with the technocratic aesthetics stripped away. Failing to remove this woman, condemn the comments, change their policy stances, is all but further support.

Starmer himself was flirting with this sort of language prior to the election:

https://www.tiktok.com/@pinknews/video/7384489626704022817

You don’t have to defend this stuff, it’s abhorrent, we can say labour is fucking up. They’re well and truly past the benefit of the doubt stage now, they’re sailing the ship.

I worked with Cass about 20+ years ago. She was a nasty person with an agenda who, once she made up her mind about something, buried evidence (as well as people) that was contrary to her own opinion and railroaded through her own ideas.

I haven't read the report so not gonna get drawn on the current discussion about which I don't know very much, but I wouldn't trust anything that she says.

Cass is a sham sandwich.

shamwich