General Election 2019

who knew about A50? Irish Boarder? Etc.? Etc?

We knew about all of these in the 2017 election. Or are you making the 'Leave voters were more ignorant – let's start again' argument?

Labour is at an inherent disadvantage going into any election. To contest the referendum result was nuts. I mean, their's may be a reasoned stance that I personally favour ... but I never thought the public were stupid enough not overlook Labour's obfuscation for political ends, or clever enough to see through the weaponisation of Brexit by the right wing press.

But he's RIGHT, isn't he. I don't care which side of the party you're on, if you can't hear the truth of what he's saying we're all in trouble.

Can someone point me to the evidence/polling that the Labour's PV Brexit gained more votes than it lost pls.

I missed that memo.

My theory on the election is that the reasonable (by recent standards) turnout of 67% is actually a symptom of, rather than masking, a huge amount of political fatigue and disenfranchisement.

I think the Tories picked up on that much better than Labour did, and promised to basically make politics go away by getting the most dominant electoral issue out of the way - whereas Labour offered a lot more engagement, a lot more intervention, and that's part of the reason it was a lot less appealing.

A lot of people took a gamble that 1) their voices might actually be heard, like they thought they would in 2016 and 2) the Tories can't make things significantly worse than they already are.

I think they're right about 1 and fear they're wrong about 2.

And I hope that the Tories have so little planned beyond Brexit that the next Labour leader can actually offer something hopeful and enticing.

But that means nothing really. He is a former PM and isn’t fighting a particular battle so coming out on one side or the other is fine. The party on the other hand needed a better way to deal with it and only found it 3 years later than it should have been found.

TBH I (probably irrationally) view Corbyn as one of those to blame for Brexit because of his fence sitting.

Can someone point me to the evidence/polling that the Labour's PV Brexit gained more votes than it lost pls.

https://www.paulmason.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/After-Corbynism-v1.4.pdf

He's right about some things - and I think I'd rather have shit Labour in power than any Tories.

But he's also very selective with the information he chooses.

I liked the part where he talks about what united Labour in the 1940s, despite the relative extremes of Bevin and Bevan.

But he has to accept his part in making the divides in Labour irreconcilable since 2015.

By all accounts, Corbyn and his team were very poor people managers, and very abrasive - but he was undermined consistently by people who seemed incredibly bitter that they weren't getting their way, and so it's a bit rich for Blair to talk about the lack of a shared vision now.

This is strange, and a bit sad:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/18/extra-pathos-belongings-of-ex--labour-mp-who-lost-seat-incinerated

Why the hell are they incinerating shoes, suits, shirts and ties rather than donating them to charity though? Bizarre story all round.

I think the Tories picked up on that much better than Labour did, and promised to basically make politics go away by getting the most dominant electoral issue out of the way - whereas Labour offered a lot more engagement, a lot more intervention, and that's part of the reason it was a lot less appealing.

100% Hence the tory hammering of 2 more referendums message. The make-it-go-away vote was strong.

Corbyn and his team were very poor people managers, and very abrasive - but he was undermined consistently by people who seemed incredibly bitter that they weren't getting their way

Who are these mysterious forces? Could they be the people that Corbyn and co didn't spend years of prep work aligning so that once they had power, exercising it was easy?

Isn't this just one of many consequences of putting someone in a leadership role who historically has not made any plans to lead, so hasn't done the groundwork. The imposter syndrome on its own must have been crushing.

But he has to accept his part in making the divides in Labour irreconcilable since 2015.

I can't really see how Blair is responsible for that.

Even those around Corbyn say that basically he wasn't intelligent enough to lead.

Certainly some of this. Boris was for 'less politics'. Not unlike Trump.

I just blame boomers and gen x.
a) They lived through 70s Labour
b) They read newspapers
c) They love Facebook
d) They're too fucking old to understand what they're looking at

Or are you making the... argument?

I probably didn't phrase it well, but what I'm driving at is that Brexit has been a real curve ball.

Predicting how it's played out, and thus how you pitch to the electorate is only easy knowing what we know now.

"Get Brexit Done" seems obvious and catchy. But that's only because of the cluster-fuck and parliamentary games. "Brexit means Brexit' is equally vague, but didn't land.

Stating the obvious but 2017 isn’t 2019

They're hardly "mysterious forces" - they were pretty outspoken in calling another leadership election on the pretext of the outcome of the EU referendum. It's not a conspiracy to say that people like Stephen Kinnock, Hilary Benn, Jess Philips etc. were outspoken in their criticism of Corbyn.

Following what seems to be your logic, you should only be party leader once you've spent years "networking" and aligning, and a lack of unity compounding a poor media image is acceptable.

And you're not sure about Blair's role in it? What about contributions like this:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/28/tony-blair-corbyn-government-dangerous-experiment

Tony Blair has said it would be a “very dangerous experiment” if Jeremy Corbyn or a populist politician like him were to form a government.

So yes, what a time to call for unity of purpose.

I'd love for Labour to find a leader who the party can actually unite behind. But blaming Corbyn alone for the division is horseshit.

Given the result, has his assessment not been vindicated?

If Tony Blair wants to get back into politics he should do that the usual democratic way, perhaps as TIG leader, after declaring all his business interests. We'll see how many votes he gathers. Otherwise ... don't listen to the lobbyist.

Or did he contribute to the result?

Thanks.

This resonates.

In the end, we lost because part of the former industrial working class in the
Midlands and the North has detached itself from the values that are now core to our
party. That is the result of a decades long process, which began under Tony Blair,
and was never going to be turned around in six weeks.

I guess I differ in my reading of events in that I thought the handling of Brexit made the leadership look ridiculous. Whereas Mason (who is obviously closer to the party than I am) seems to say the handling of Brexit just exposed how dysfunctional the leadership was all along.

In London 1 in 52 people are homeless according to the charity Shelter, the capital is worse than the average in England which is 1 in 200.

https://www.ft.com/content/092ab022-20de-11ea-b8a1-584213ee7b2b

Homelessness has increased by 39% since 2009

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Yeah. I think you're vastly over-estimating his influence as one of many sideline commentators on events.

Charging young people 58Bn to pay ladies like Theresa May 22,000 each, whilst any woman who actually needed it would have it forbidden by the benefits cap? Sign me up!

Well my mum was very keen. She wouldn't get 22k or hit a cap. She spent 35 years working with statement children in secondary schools (never paid more than 18k) and had her pension taken away so with all due respect ... fuck you :)

.

In that case I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. I'm not saying this election result is Blair's fault. Just that he has played his part in Labour's problems, rather than being the great healer he is trying to portray himself as.

and had her pension taken away

Equalised. And she had something like 15 years’ notice to make alternative arrangements.