Isen workshop: adventures in batch production (or not...)

Are you sure? user155947 didn't drop in anything about a country estate or a tractor or some shit.

Ha very true. Who is Keyser Soze!?
There’s a lot of emotions on here from both sides. I only decided to create an account so I could add views/thoughts of my own.

That's Jancing Dames to you

Was a few years ago so you've probably forgotten. You've spent so long 'staying quiet' that it must be hard to keep track. Have too much work to do to trawl through the thread and find it but will give it a go later.

Not accusing anyone else of anything, I know a load of people have had bad experiences and it's fair enough to voice them, it's just James and his 'staying quiet' that grates when he's been desperately willing the business to fail for years.

Fair enough. I’m not getting involved in that and i would never wish for a failure…but if a business wants to maintain trust, they should be as transparent as possible especially when customers are putting down large deposits. The last bike I bought the builder was so clear from the outset that the delivery date could move out by 6 months but pretty much updated me every month with clear build pics, reasons for delays (fortunately few) and that helped bring reassurance. It is also a nightmare for a lot of builders…imagine running a workshop, orders, comms, finances etc etc on your own in one of the smallest margin industries…not something I could do.
Mistakes however should be owned by the business owner and the accountability too. If they’ve lied, used money for other purposes in the business…personally that doesn’t feel right and goes back to my initial post…I worry the actions (whether intentionally of not) could have more severe consequences than initially intended

I have not set up a sock puppet account to discuss Isen. I don’t think I have had an active alias on lfgss for many years.

At the time of my Isen build I kept the problems I had experienced off this thread, as it was a new business with teething problems. Though the process was delayed, problematic, assurances given and not delivered upon and it was immensely stressful.

However when subsequent batches of bikes were having similar issues it became apparent that the quality control, communications etc hadn’t improved at all.

I have had PMs over the years from others who had similar problems but refrained from going public because of the reactions from Isen and their defenders. It pisses me off that people have been bullied into silence.

Again I'm really keen to not get involved as I don't have all the information - partly because I've barely seen Matt or Caren in quite a long time because they were generally working 6/7 day weeks trying to get orders out. I just don't like the barely concealed glee certain people exhibit at what's a really sad situation that has taken a massive toll on everyone involved.

I also don't have the time to get into internet arguments because of work, family, etc, so should really be staying out of this. All I'll say is it seems near impossible to make any sort of money as a uk framebuilder, the economics just don't seem to add up unless you start with a trust fund, family providing workshop space, etc, etc. Or go the 'designed in UK' route and get everything made abroad. Once you exclude those builders you've got a pretty limited number making any sort of living out of it.

I've no skin in this game but it appears to me it's not so much people relishing the collapse of a business but people having been burnt by their business practices speaking out about their experience. As an outside reader of the thread there doesn't seem to have been any real trolling because disgruntled customers have a legitimate complaint.

I'm sure they've been working hard and struggling to make a living in a tough industry but that's by the by for a customer paying money for a product. I'd even argue they should have set up a better business model in the first place rather than struggling from day 1.

I only mentioned one person enjoying it.

Anyway, I have to work and should not be getting drawn into this.

I have a suspicion that the only good uk framebuilding business model is not to do it at all. So in a sense you're right there.

It's not just framebuilding, it's across industries where small businesses are working with passion and sacrificing alot to do it.
I don't know anyone here and don't know what's has happened and I'd be angry if I lost money, of course.
I'm only speaking out because I've been through burn out 8-10 years ago and I can't overstate how serious it is - way beyond exhaustion and frustration.
I imagine my reputation took a knock in that time with some customers, although I still sacrificed so much to keep everyone happy.
Fortunately there wasn't public forum where my failures were openly discussed - Unless I stumble upon it one day!

We need small independent passionate businesses, some won't make much money but they'll employ and be creative.

As a positive for framebuilders, there are some incredible metalworkers out there that I met at Bespoked that don't get much hype. Many have business/fabrication experience beyond the bike-bubble. Howler frameworks, Smithy Frameworks, loads I could list that I'd 100% trust with a frame
I think some of the big online bike brands are riskier places to spend your money these days.

Your claim I used a sock puppet remains bullshit.

I am saddened a business has failed. But I am glad that no one else will have the levels of disappointment that myself, @Scilly.Suffolk @TW et al have had to deal with. I wanted Isen to learn from the issues with batch 1. I even offered to help them with a QC checklist as there were clearly multiple things they didn’t check adequately before shipping frames out. But years down the line others were experiencing similar frustrations with quality, timeliness, communications etc.

There does seem to be a bit of dancing on the grave of Isen here which I'm not sure is warranted.
I'm sure once the frame builders children take to the Internet and research the good work their parents have done, reading some people calling your dad or mum a cunt on the Internet or throwing spurious allegations about them being criminals isn't cricket.
Not everyone has an impeccable comms style and people react in different ways to conflict and putting things right.

I don't do metal work or anything, but i do have experience with burnout as well.
I also used to work as a freelancer/contractor and you know what I did when I couldn't complete a project due to burnout? I said "sorry, I am unwell, I can't come through with this" and then I refunded my client. Do you know what I didn't do? Ghost the person and stopped replying.

This.

You do realise it's possible to be unwell and stressed enough that it's beyond your ability to effectively communicate anymore?

Burn-out is different for different people isn't it.
Some people don't survive it themselves, let alone their businesses, relationships.
It's not always reckless either, signs can be subtle and society/overheads can lead you to keep pushing when everyone tells you to stop.
There are potentially people on the receiving end suffering too, so it's not good for anyone.

Yes, I do. I've been there myself. I lost a good 2 years of income to burnout. Had to get some proper help and meds.

My Talbot story is there for everyone to read about.
My sentiment at the time was this: https://www.lfgss.com/comments/14918833/

And I really hoped that Matt'd come through and be better. I really did.

But what has me commenting the way I am now is that I had a few people DM me in the past year or so and go "hey, I am getting ghosted right now, what happened to your frame in the end?". One of then must've even been to the workshop in person and it was all smiles and chat and then .... nada ...

So in regards to your original question. I have my doubts that this can happen over and over again and you don't change the way you do things, or that you can be so selective in your state of debilitation that you manage to take deposits etc just fine for a few more years plus crank out some awesome showcases for Handmade or whanot, or that two business owners are in this state at exactly the same time, without telling waiting customers "Hey, my business partner isn't on deck atm, we'll be a while, this and that is happening to your order". That's the bit that grates.

Sorry. I don't want my comments about burn-out to be seen as a defence of anyone. It was more prompted by the 'small business' chat about difficult times.

It's fine. And you're right. It does affect people differently.

Anyway, I weighed in here long and hard enough now. I'm out like the 90s.

For someone who claims to have been in that position, your lack of empathy is quite concerning

And as for dj accusing people of bullying, he really needs to take a very long hard look at himself

All I'll say is it seems near impossible to make any sort of money as a uk framebuilder, the economics just don't seem to add up unless you start with a trust fund, family providing workshop space, etc, etc.

I read a survey of framebuilders asking about their finances and I am starting to suspect that this is the case. Perhaps Matt and Caren had problems unique to the way they ran the shop that caused them to go under but it probably is more fragile than I imagine.

I did put down 50% of my frame's price, but that does mean there was 50% in it for them if they finished building it. Even if this was financially costly to me (and I'll be OK, it stings but in the end this was a luxury purchase and I budgeted for it) I can't imagine this situation is profitable at all to the folks at Isen. I definitely feel hurt by the lack of communication and not getting my dream frame but it's also hard to not feel for them as well.

I guess in the end I learned an expensive but important lesson about counter-party risk. Or made a sizable donation to a few people unfortunate to be living in the UK economy right now. In any case, I don't see any point in dwelling on it or getting angry. I met with a framebuilder where I live in the US and, apart from being a little burnt out on the custom thing, they just didn't speak to me the same way Isen did and I'm not sure anything will.

I'll probably order a Canyon.

I'll probably order a Canyon

This will be engraved on custom framebuilding's headstone.

Which builder did you meet with? I wholeheartedly recommend Seven. Absolutely fantastic to work with. No candy paint, but having now had three of them, the frames really are brilliant.

David Kirk, also fantastic. Didn't end up going through with my order but very good guy and a legend of a framebuilder.

Pursuit Cycles/Carl Strong also have a very good reputation.