US Politics

1990s was the time of filofaxes. I recall stories of terrorist networks being uncovered as the Antifa guys pulled the filofaxes out of the pockets of their targets.

Posted this in the black lives matter thread but worth putting it here as well..

As relieved as I am that joe Biden (legal challenges apart) has won the us presidency, what scares me is that 57% (or close to that number) of white people voted for trump! Over half the white population of the United States voted for a man whose been a racist throughout his political “career”. If it wasn’t for the black and Latino vote, trump would have got four more years and I don’t think it would have been particularly close..

Now it’s down to black voters in Georgia to see if they can turn the tide in the senate in the face of gerrymandering and institutional attempts to disenfranchise their ability to vote, come January, giving Biden what Obama never had, control of the senate and the ability to push through policies that could reverse some of the legislative damage that this administration and complicit republicans have put in place.

And the removal of lead from petrol (mild lead poisoning of developing brains leading to violence later in life).

Possibly not factual...

Possibly not factual...

I've certainly read a few books that say this as gospel. Hasn't even crossed my mind that it might not be true! Will have to do some proper reading on it now.

Correlation is not causation.

Lots of Kati's family are Republican voters and voted for Trump this time, and 4 years ago. They don't like the man nor do they agree with everything he says but they are pro-life single issue voters and that is the way of it. I thin they see his racism as being an ugly stain to have to bear to get what they want.

I'm not sure what's worse. I don't want to believe nearly 60% of the white population of the USA is racist or racist-adjacent, but the alternative is that they believe the "democrats are socialists, free healthcare is tyrany etc" and associated bullshit.

Think this is the case for many Republican voters. They're voting for Trump as he's their only candidate. If the election had 3 candidates:

a - Repblican - Trump as president
b - Republican - Someone else as president
c - Democrats - Biden as president

I think b would've gotten a fair chunk of votes

I'd be really interested in how you separate this out.

Just off the top of my head you've got to find control countries/societies which have both comparable economic health/lack of as well as war time experience.

Very much being an armchair phycologist here, but surely something like the violence and trauma from Vietnam much have had a knock-on for the levels of violence in the US?

Like this?

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Didn't Trump win Florida because of the Latino votes? They probably fall for the evil socialist narrative.

This is a useful list I think https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2018/02/an-updated-lead-crime-roundup-for-2018/

When Sopel was interviewing old Floridians in retirement communities, he recounted how he constantly came across very embarrassed Republicans who were utterly dismayed by the coarsening of discourse and polarization of debate.

Obviously we don't know how those people voted, and you'll never know how many held their noses.

But that is the challenge with a two horse race, you get put on one side or the other.

I'd also be interested to see some numbers behind the Latino vote. I've seen some stats clearly showing the importance of the black vote, but I thought the Latino vote was much more divided. Now we're out the other side, it's worth pointing out that for all the Dreamers PR rhetoric from Obama he had a pretty ruthless deportation policy.

I think this is a pretty good point. Lots of ex-republicans have noted that they haven't changed, but the party has moved away from them. What I really wanted to say to Trump supporters is that, unless you are manifestly racist or misogynist, there are better people to take the country where you want to go than Donald Trump. There are conservative leaders who will actually lead, who think of their country before themselves, who aren't afraid of taking expert advice, who's idea of draining the swamp isn't repopulating it with cronies and relatives, who will actually try to create a United States rather than alienating half the country solely for personal political and financial gain. Unfortunately there appear to be so many who have been hooked by the idea that anyone to the left of Mitch McConnell is just waiting to turn them into Venezuela that they'll convince themselves that Trumps obvious flaws are just what everyone is like or can just be overlooked.

Which is understandable if you've come from a fucked up country where the authoritarian government came to power on the pretense of socialism.

Cheers. Will procrastinate over this later.

@cornelius_blackfoot

There was an interesting article from a 2nd generation immigrant from Latin America discussing why they believe a lot of 1st generation vote Republican. Can't find it now but it was basically that they had been brainwashed by manipulative media to think that the Democrats were Communist baby killers and wanted all of their money. Once someone has been so terrified into believing they will come to actual harm, they lose any compassion or empathy for others. Not that that is an excuse, just one explanation.

If someone is already on the bones of their arse, they probably don't have much compassion to begin with. Threaten to take away their bones, then it's very easy to get them to stick their fingers further into their ears.

FWIW my Republican mate (who's clearly gone off the deep end) sees/saw him as the only person from outside the system with enough wealth to battle the inherent corruption of the system.

So I don't think the anti-establishment appeal is going anywhere. Even more so as on the other side of the coin plenty of people on the "left" probably share exactly the same views on the levels of corruption and nepotism, and corporate control.

Love that photo. It's been made into a statue over here

It is also important not to trivialize the lived experiences of people who've fled those countries. Sitting here it's too easy to say, "but that's not socialism", but when you've been at the sharp end you will inevitably have a different view.

(also standard disclaimer that "Latino" is a very broad term and a migrant worker from Mexico is not the same as a middle class Ecuadorian)

There is some research based on different US states banning leaded petrol at different times. While the different states aren't the same they are much more similar than two different countries etc.

That wasn't/isn't my intention at all. You can easily see why someone who having fled one god awful regime, would be terrified of seeing the same thing happen where they have fled to. And why they'd be vulnerable to being convinced that's what voting Democrat will lead to.

FWIW my Republican mate (who's clearly gone off the deep end) sees/saw him as the only person from outside the system with enough wealth to battle the inherent corruption of the system.

That was what a load of people said about him early doors, and it's possibly not a stupid thing to believe if you were unhappy with the 'system' as it currently is. Wanting someone who, through either character or wealth, is incorruptable possibly still is an acceptable thing to want.

But Christ, after four years you still think Trump is the one to cleanse politics? Please.

Personally I suspect that the accumulation of extreme wealth is an indication that you cannot possibly be incorruptable, or that you have sound character.

I don't want to believe nearly 60% of the white population of the USA is racist or racist-adjacent.

I think once you start to frame racist as 'ignorant or blind to racial inequality/race issues not through hatred but due to lack of exposure to any alternative viewpoints/opinions' as opposed to outwardly/actively racist, in the same way that a lot of peoples grandparents in this country are/were probably a little bit racist - then it becomes a lot more conceivable.

I think it is more uncomfortable, than inconceivable to countenance.

Totally get that.

I guess I just wanted to make the point that we'll tend to have a Euro-centric view that now references social policies in modern left leaning European countries.

I could see that in my own parents. We came from a communist eastern European country
in 1981 and when they could vote in the 1990s in Germany they voted conservative.