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• #628
The Solution
After the uprising of the 17th of June
The Secretary of the Writers' Union
Had leaflets distributed in the Stalinallee
Stating that the people
Had forfeited the confidence of the government
And could win it back only
By redoubled efforts. Would it not be easier
In that case for the government
To dissolve the people
And elect another?- Bertolt Brecht
- Bertolt Brecht
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• #629
Why? WHY? Why not explain to people your viewpoints and arguments, and stick to your principles? Why should Labour politics always be about pandering to unsavoury ideologies just to hoover up some votes? Is politics only about getting into power? Are there no ideals to strive for? Is making yourself more like the Tories or UKIP the only way to get into government? Why not try and educate people about immigration, about inequalities and excessive executive pay, about animal cruelty of horse racing, and try to raise the level of debate beyond a sound bite or frothy engagement. Corbyn has tried to do those things. Angela Eagle has nothing, absolutely nothing
to offer.THIS!
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• #630
Paging damo
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• #631
As opposed to the House of Cards scheming there is large portion of not knowing wtf you are doing
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• #632
Now would be the time to have some policies.
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• #633
Everything you wrote in that first paragraph is part of what's wrong with the Labour party.
It's not necessarily racist to have concerns about immigration, many successful people want to pay something back (not just pay their workers fairly) and what's wrong with aspiring to go to Ascot? It's not my bag and I think horse racing is cruel but if it floats her boat.
To get elected again the party needs to deal with concerns, embrace aspirations and frankly stop being so snooty about people who don't conform to their particular expectations.
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• #634
Pretty damning.
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• #635
It's not necessarily racist to have concerns about immigration.
Engaging on immigration will never work for Labour as UKIP and the Tories will only push it harder. Chasing the right will only drag the party further right.
Labour would be much better of fighting the lie that immigration is a problem and pushing the anti-austerity message instead.
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• #636
I agree that Labour should be fighting the lie that immigration is a problem but not engaging on it so far's worked out great, hasn't it?
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• #637
Well said though the education should be about the big issue. Why some people have low paid jobs, the inability to buy a house or rent a council house (while we can bail put banks and score up the pound to the tune of billions) and all the other niggles caused by the austerity / national debt myth. Just stating clearly that labour would increase the state offer, tax richer people more and make big companies that exploit people such as mobile phone companies, utilities etc more regulated or nationalised. Oh amd empower works more by reverting some of the anti union legislation. Old school socialism expressed clearly may sweep away the last Blairite conmen and offer a genuine opposition that may be electable
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• #638
Labour has engaged. And, as @Ste_S pointed out, they can't win that way.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7097837.stm
Which legitimized:
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/513546/Nigel-Farage-British-businesses-put-UK-workers-first
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• #640
To get elected again the party needs to deal with concerns, embrace aspirations and frankly stop being so snooty about people who don't conform to their particular expectations.>
This. Jesus.
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• #641
et>
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• #642
I don't see the connection. You're not saying that Corbyn or Livingstone's position on Hammas is anything like the left's approach to the IRA in the late 60's are you?>
The connection is the instinctive support from some on the hard left of the side in any conflict they perceive to be the oppressed. There is a pattern, but that does not make Hamas and the IRA are the same. Peace negotiations in Palestine have been aided by those who worked on the NI peace talks, and there are clearly similarities in terms of the ingrained, generation to generation hatred that fuels both conflicts.
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• #643
pandering to unsavoury ideologies
For this, I read "make people feel they are being listened to"
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• #644
To get elected again the party needs to deal with concerns, embrace aspirations and frankly >stop being so snooty about people who don't conform to their particular expectations.>
This. Jesus.
Do you think immigration is a problem ? Do you support austerity ?
If so and you want the Labour party to chase these, they're never going to win an election. The Tories can push these far harder than Labour can.
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• #645
Is politics only about getting into power? Are there no ideals to strive for?
Basically sums the whole thing up for me. Some people think ideals aren't much use if you aren't in government; others think May has made a grab for the centre because she has been dragged left by Corbyn.
Sadly, the level of the discourse is such that it's hard to discuss this in a rational way.
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• #646
Do you think immigration is a problem ? Do you support austerity ?
Reducing it down in this way forces the discussion into a binary choice which is unhelpful.
Yvette Cooper gave a speech soon after the referendum where she said
Those who saw globalisation as an opportunity voted in
Those who felt globalisation was a threat and didn’t trust “the system” to make it better voted outWhich I think is fundamentally correct. The problem is that a lot of the middle class southern left are internationalists, and saw the EU and its four freedoms through an internationalist prism, whereas a lot of traditional labour voters in the more deprived areas of the country have seen their industries destroyed by international competition, and now believe that job growth and pay are so stagnant because of an influx of foreign workers. They're not internationalists - they see globalisation as having hurt, not helped them, and they'd like to get that under control. UKIP are currently the main lot claiming that they can and would do so.
So, to me, the Labour Party under Corbyn feels like it is currently engaged in a massive fight between those who think moving the party to the centre for electoral success is a good strategy, and those who think that the party needs to be more to the left and then maybe either a) non-voters who lean left will vote for it, or b) the population will skew more left when it sees what the left could be if it weren't tacking to the centre.
I think a) might happen, but I suspect it'll be more middle class voters in safe Labour areas, which thanks to FPTP won't change who's in government. I think b) is deeply optimistic and refer you to the Bertolt Brecht poem I posted up-thread. I think this not least because the leftist vision that's being portrayed so far feels like student union politics - where there's no power, so taking stances is all you can do. (Which is why, IMHO, so few people think Corbyn could be PM. We know what he doesn't like, but there's little sign of real policies that he would implement - this is student politics writ large).
That said, I don't think tacking to a Blairite centre will work either, because Blair was also a middle class internationalist who thought everyone would just make the most of globalisation.
Both wings of the party are failing to articulate a solid leftwing strategy that addresses some voters' fear of globalisation, reconciles it with others' internationalism, and packages it in a progressive economic programme.
Instead, they're making Gordon Brown's mistake and assuming everyone who doesn't automatically share the views of the internationalists is a nasty bigot.
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• #647
^ I agree with this person.
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• #649
I said pages ago that there are two hurdles for Corbyn - competence and policy. He falls at both.
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• #650
Er.....
this will always be jeremy corbyn's shortcoming - he's just not racisty enough to get elected.