EU referendum, brexit and the aftermath

Well what he promised to do would be a good start: oppose article 50 if Labour's demands (common market access, worker's rights etc.) weren't met. He has broken that promise and I believe it will be at the expense of the British people.

I strongly suspect that line of action became impossible with Tristram Hunt's timely resignation.

What I think he/Labour should have done is oppose Brexit tooth and nail. Their popularity is already at rock bottom, so worrying about upsetting leave voters was a red herring. But it's a bigger issue than the Labour party's popularity - they should have done what's right for the country. If they then lost - which the numbers do probably make inevitable - at least they would have tried. It's better to fight and fall than live without hope, as the Völsunga saga says.

Oh dear. I hope you don't mind me saying that's utter bollocks. :)

I think that really would have destroyed Labour.

He tweeted yesterday to say the fight starts now - what, in the Lords? It's too late. As someone said on the Today programme he couldn't fight his way out of a paper bag.

I could also ask: What, in the Commons? How exactly?

I really don't think there was any way he could have assembled a majority in the Commons (neither could any other Labour leader).

Down the line I think the Brexiteers will be judged to have been on the wrong side of history. If so Corbyn's lack of leadership and ineffective opposition means he'll be lumped in with them.

Let's see what happens with the byelections. If Labour tanks it in those, Corbyn will probably have to go.

The problem may just be that the UK isn't left enough.

I don't think that's the case, it's just that left-wing voters have traditionally not voted enough--very high levels of absenteeism, whereas the Tories can generally rely on getting their vote out. It's very similar in other countries, and gerrymandering is alive and well. Just look at the US.

At the end of the day most of Labour's core brexit voters would vote Labour no matter what.

Is that true? How do you know? All I've seen is that many of them are likely to defect to UKIP. Never trust the polls etc. :)

I guess it's hard to tell without it happening. Personally I think having over 50 MPs ignore a three line whip makes Corbyn appear a weak leader whereas an open vote could have been spun to make it appear his choice.

I think you're overestimating the importance of Tristram Hunt there...

I think that really would have destroyed Labour.

I hope you don't mind me saying that's utter bollocks. :)

That opposing Brexit would destroy the party is a tired fallacy. It's not opposing Brexit that is destroying the party, right now, not in some theoretical past or future.

Yes, the numbers don't add up but to impose a three line whip on voting through May's hard Brexit means Labour has totally failed to differentiate itself from the Tories. On a matter of critical national importance.

You can keep waiting for by-elections if you like but Corbyn had to go long ago. Unfortunately he's still here.

I think it's damage limitation. That MPs in Remain constituencies voted against comes across quite well, I think. Obviously, Corbyn's in a Remain constituency himself (as is Diane Abbott), but I think his choice to vote in favour as party leader is again quite communicable.

Again, I'm not saying any of this is good or pretty, but I think they navigated these minefields quite well and avoided serious political long-term damage.

I agree I don't think he's hard left. Very much mainland center left. My criticism is towards the brexit hard left being as much pie in the sky as the brexit hard right.

Yet the voters think he is. Either way it's done for. I don't see labour recovering or small parties grow enough due to fptp...

I think you're overestimating the importance of Tristram Hunt there...

I don't consider him important in the slightest, but he did trigger a crucial byelection by which Labour will be measured.

What would have destroyed Labour would have been to be caught between UKIP and Lib Dems. The combined effect of these two helping the Tories take Labour seats, or taking Labour seats themselves, would have caused Labour to lose a lot of seats at the next general election.

Anyway, we'll see how the political climate develops when the byelection votes are in.

Trust me, I'm not an expert. :)

It is so bizarre how the likes of Ken Clarke and the majority of the PLP and the lib dems have so much more in common with each other compared to may and boris and corbyn.

Er? I thought Clarke was a staunch Tory right-winger, the single exception being Europe.

ah yes, the 'respectable' tories. Like a piece of sweetcorn in a turd.

I sort of agree on reasonable and intelligent--I think he's the only Tory politician of any stature (honorable mention to Sayeeda Warsi) and the reason why he didn't end up leading the party was because of his views on Europe. I don't know his views in detail, either, but over the years I seem to remember him articulating a fair few unpalatable positions, e.g. I'm pretty sure it was him who introduced the internal market in the NHS. A friend of mine was working as a nurse at the time and said it was an utter disaster and a prelude to full privatisation. That sort of thing. I also once met a bloke in a pub who claimed that he knew him and the reason why he hadn't become Tory leader yet was because he drank too much. /csb #mayhavebeenfakenewsgossip

How about unelectably left? Because that's the reality.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38915553

Government threatens Lords to go along.

Fuck's sake people, first the gov had to be dragged to court over article 50 and now it's threatening the (not perfect, and unelected) check on parliament.

It would be rather hilarious if the Lords would remind the Tories of their promise not to drag the UK out of the EEC, but if they can and will is another matter...

one of the few labour MPs who are meant to offer an alternative to tory-lite policies.

ftfy. Hard to see how he can genuinely claim to offer an alternative to Tory policies when he's whipping his MPs into voting for their hard Brexit plan.

Neither am I but I'm not convinced a single by-election means much anymore in these turbulent political times.

Because they always have, no matter how much their own party has fucked them over.
Same with core Tory voters. There are papers written about how people continue to support parties that make them worse off.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/europe/eu-policy-agenda/brexit/news/83229/labour-lords-face-down-abolition-threats-and-table

Well, some glimmer of hope here. Not counting on anything of course, but the Lords have tabled some sensible amendments.

They will get at least a handful of those amendments through. The Conservatives do not have an automatic majority in the Lords, so the crossbenchers will play an important part.

Do you think emailing lords will help?

So far the campaign for EU nationals (the 3million) rights has been rather fruitless. Bar a few brave Tory and Labour rebels it was "will of the people / party whips" all over...

The lords won't block article 50, but they will take great pleasure in kicking great chunks out of it in the form of amendments. I'm sure it can't hurt to email them, but peers are pretty immune to most of the "will of the people" stuff.
When you don't have to worry about being re-elected every five years, you can say what you actually believe, rather than what you think your constituents want to hear.
Same with the whips. What favours or privileges can a whip in the lords actually deliver or withhold?

The Lord's are still an unaccountable, illiberal anachronism that wants abolishing.

And yet, sadly beyond their insistence on subsidised champagne and vintage wines they seem to have more ethics than their elected counterparts. Perhaps reaching the end of a long, coddled life they feel a slight pang of responsibility to the people that actually pick up their tab?

While the lord's no doubt needs reform, the freedom that knowing you don't have to win an election in a few years time means they are the only group with an incentive to look at the long term. It's times like this you're glad they're there.

Maybe because the Lords don't have to give a shit they may actually do what's right here.

Remember their block on working tax credit cuts, so the Tories had promised black on white not to cut these?

Rumours has it the conservative party manifesto promised to not pull the UK out of the EEC..

You don't think the Lord's will be at all scared of the Daily Mail headlines and them issuing a Kill List