EU referendum, brexit and the aftermath

I don't understand - how do you think EU laws are made?

there was no one more old and wise in the labour party than tony benn (RIP) and he wanted nothing to do with the eu . i am not against the EU and am open to the pros and cons but all you get on here is this guys a cunt , that guys a wanker , farage did this galloway did that etc . TTIP is a massive threat for example :
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/what-is-ttip-and-six-reasons-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html

What sort of deal do you think would be brokered between the US & UK, if the UK left the EU?

It would make TTIP look like a new Magna Carta for the freedom and self-determinism of the individual.

And just as a point of pedantry - you just complained about ad hominem reasoning, after using ad hominem reasoning...

Wrong. Most laws are formulated by lawyers and civil servants. Unelected fuckers at that!

And just as a point of pedantry - you just complained about ad hominem reasoning, after using ad hominem reasoning...

i did ? what did i say who was i calling a cunt ?

70 per cent of all processed foods sold in US supermarkets now containing genetically modified ingredients. By contrast, the EU allows virtually no GM foods.

EU regulations on GM crops, lobbied for strongly by the green party in Europe, have stymied the advance of technology that could really help provide more food more cheaply and sustainably to more people. For example, a crop can be modified to be immune to certain pests or blights, meaning pesticides are not needed so much. A relaxation of these rules would be a very good thing. All our food is genetically modified, the only difference with modern modifications is they are done quickly in a lab, rather than over generations through selective breeding. I will be voting to stay in, but this is one area where the EU pisses me off.

but they go through parliament to become law ?

http://www.parliament.uk/business/lords/work-of-the-house-of-lords/making-laws/

Yep. But ask yourself this, given the voting habits of the GBP, would you rather the elected fuckers formulate the laws?

i think i was saying they were unelected too , i meant lords who oversee the final bill amendment are unelected ......

i did ? what did i say who was i calling a cunt ?

no one more old and wise in the labour party than tony benn

Not an ad hominem, strictly speaking, but the same fallacy, nonetheless

Paint colour, Bueller, Bueller, Bueller?

In for three fundamental reasons:

1. The mitigating effect of European law on unjust, unfair and just plain wrong Tory policies. There is no effective opposition in this country at the moment, the Tories really would have free rein without European laws, which is pretty petrifying.
   
2. Borders are fundamentally wrong and a bad idea. The world would be a much better place with without borders. Borders create suffering, such as all the people who have drowned in the Mediterranean over the last few years. They are arbitrary ways of delineating people which don't really stand up to scrutiny, so the closer we are to the rest of the EU the better. As a few people have said in this thread, it works both ways too.
   
3. Maybe all/most of us can't remember it but WWII really wasn't that long ago. The European Project has never been just about securing prosperity, it is also about securing peace. Taking peace for granted is truly idiotic.
   
   

Also has anyone actually looked at the Leave.EU website? The UX is horrendous, you have to click to enter it. LOL.

I've spent all this week biting my tongue over my fiancé's Dad's outbursts on Facebook as to why the EU is "holding us back from being true innovators", as he seems to be forgetting he likes to go on holiday to Majorca twice a year, not eat any local food and whinge about wanting to go home almost as soon as he gets there.

I'm carefully timing my moment to ask him how he feels about filling in visa forms to ever see sunshine again.

If no true opposition, better a egocentric buffoon than a swivel eyed psycho at the next general election then? (Johnson vs Osborne.)

That we're lumped with such a Byzantine choice of electoral gruel is a rather dispiriting function of modern politics.

better a egocentric buffoon than a swivel eyed psycho at the next general election then? (Johnson vs Osborne.)

Which one's which?

I can tell which one's which but is there genuinely that much difference? If anything, I'd say Boris is worse.

What we have seen over the last few days is that Boris is a popular politician and people care what he thinks. The egocentric buffoon is an act remember, he's a nasty, shrewd little operator under that exterior, don't be fooled by the wolf in sheep's clothing act like everyone else.

The last few days have also shown that Boris is a a shrewd, ambitious operator. I'm not convinced he actually wants a Brexit, but in backing one now he is perfectly positioning himself for a leadership bid which appeals to the party membership and the right of the party who Cameron can't/won't take with him when Cameron stands down. And he is throwing his friend Dave under a bus to do it.

I'd say that's not surprising for a politician who once plotted to have a journalist beaten up.

When I was a kid, Spain, Portugal and Greece were fascist dictatorships. Bulgaria, Romania, Yugoslavia, the DDR etc. were until communist totalitarianism. The idea of a free, open and democratic EU was a huge factor in ending those regimes, and has changed millions of lives for the better - both in terms of living standards and in personal freedoms. It's brought peace between France and Germany.

We saw what happened when Yugoslavia broke up though - genocide and war. Nationalism and fragmentation could lead to bad outcomes.

I actually think that the UK would be generally fine outside of the EU, albeit with a hit to our GDP (of 0.25-0.5% pa?) for a few years due to uncertainty over trade (especially in financial services. But I think that the ideals of the EU are something I want to subscribe to, and that they have delivered both growth and peace over decades. The problems of the EU (or rather the Eurozone) now relate to the lack of proper fiscal transfers - you don't hear people in California complaining that their taxes are going to support jobless people in Detroit, yet that remains the biggest issue within the EZ when it comes to Germany helping the peripheral European nations like Greece and Spain.

In. And my wife says that if Gove becomes PM we are moving to Dublin.

Please can we dispense with the idea that Boris is doing anything other than playing his own selfish little game? One which wiped a chunk of value off the pound yesterday. I bet he fucking loved that, the twat.

Anyone basing their voting decisions on what that idiot is doing should be neutered for the benefit of future generations.

@dan I agree entirely on Boris.

But playing devil's advocate, isn't it good in a democracy that politicians take up populist positions, as it gives an opportunity for some groups to have their positions advocated. Why do we prefer a politician who pursues their own convictions, rather than representing the views of a constituency (in the broad sense)?

Extending the example, we would expect a barrister to represent the case of their client to the utmost of their abilities, rather than to operate on the basis of their own opinions or convictions. Isn't Boris doing something similar?

Paint colour, Bueller, Bueller, Bueller?

Will call

unjust, unfair and just plain wrong Tory policies. There is no effective opposition in this country at the moment, the Tories really would have free rein without European laws, which is pretty petrifying.

Labour were just as bad, just a different flavour. EU membership predicated on the ECHR / higher courts is really a non-party political issue.

Boris just totally fucked my holiday up. I had plans of being in Africa like...

Nick Cohen rips into Johnson
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/02/boris-johnson-everything-phoney/

Not sure that's a genuine Nick Cohen article - doesn't even attempt to blame everything on Corbyn.

I'm in the same boat and I find it unbelievably ironic.