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• #11652
Unless you read Twitter, in which case this is evidence of Corbyn finally having defeated remainers in the party, and the official statement of support for Brexit.
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A̶s̶ ̶a̶ ̶*̶"̶m̶i̶d̶d̶l̶e̶ ̶a̶g̶e̶d̶ ̶w̶h̶i̶t̶e̶ ̶(̶m̶a̶n̶ ̶w̶h̶o̶'̶s̶)̶ ̶f̶a̶i̶l̶e̶d̶ ̶u̶p̶w̶a̶r̶d̶s̶"̶*̶ ̶a̶m̶ ̶c̶o̶m̶p̶l̶e̶t̶e̶l̶y̶ ̶a̶t̶ ̶a̶ ̶l̶o̶s̶s̶ ̶a̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶a̶n̶y̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶g̶o̶v̶m̶e̶n̶t̶s̶ ̶(̶t̶h̶o̶s̶e̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶p̶o̶w̶e̶u̶r̶,̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶s̶u̶p̶o̶s̶i̶t̶i̶o̶n̶,̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶L̶a̶r̶d̶s̶,̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶u̶p̶-̶p̶u̶s̶i̶t̶i̶o̶n̶)̶ ̶p̶o̶s̶i̶t̶i̶o̶n̶s̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶a̶n̶y̶t̶h̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶a̶b̶o̶u̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶c̶l̶u̶s̶t̶e̶r̶f̶u̶c̶k̶.̶ ̶I̶f̶ ̶I̶ ̶e̶v̶e̶n̶ ̶c̶a̶r̶e̶d̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶a̶s̶k̶ ̶"̶w̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶a̶c̶t̶u̶a̶l̶ ̶f̶u̶c̶k̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶h̶a̶p̶p̶e̶n̶i̶n̶g̶?̶"̶ ̶d̶o̶e̶s̶ ̶a̶n̶y̶o̶n̶e̶ ̶(̶w̶h̶o̶ ̶a̶c̶t̶u̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶n̶e̶e̶d̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶,̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶a̶ ̶p̶o̶s̶i̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶e̶f̶f̶e̶c̶t̶ ̶i̶t̶)̶ ̶h̶a̶v̶e̶ ̶a̶ ̶f̶u̶c̶k̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶c̶l̶u̶e̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶c̶a̶n̶ ̶a̶r̶t̶i̶c̶u̶l̶a̶t̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶s̶u̶c̶h̶ ̶a̶ ̶w̶a̶y̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶w̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶m̶a̶k̶e̶ ̶a̶ ̶d̶i̶f̶f̶e̶r̶e̶n̶c̶e̶?̶ ̶E̶v̶e̶r̶y̶ ̶d̶a̶y̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶f̶e̶e̶l̶s̶ ̶l̶i̶k̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶q̶u̶e̶s̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶m̶y̶ ̶p̶a̶r̶e̶n̶t̶s̶ ̶w̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶a̶s̶k̶ ̶a̶b̶o̶u̶t̶ ̶m̶y̶ ̶s̶t̶u̶p̶i̶d̶ ̶(̶n̶o̶n̶)̶j̶o̶b̶;̶ ̶"̶w̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶d̶o̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶d̶o̶?̶"̶ ̶a̶n̶y̶ ̶e̶v̶e̶r̶y̶ ̶t̶i̶m̶e̶ ̶I̶'̶d̶ ̶g̶i̶v̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶m̶ ̶s̶o̶m̶e̶ ̶b̶u̶l̶l̶s̶h̶i̶t̶ ̶a̶b̶o̶u̶t̶ ̶'̶b̶r̶a̶n̶d̶s̶'̶ ̶o̶r̶ ̶'̶c̶o̶r̶p̶o̶r̶a̶t̶e̶ ̶i̶d̶e̶n̶t̶i̶t̶y̶'̶ ̶o̶r̶ ̶'̶s̶t̶r̶a̶t̶e̶g̶y̶'̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶y̶'̶d̶ ̶n̶o̶d̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶v̶e̶r̶s̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶w̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶m̶o̶v̶e̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶s̶a̶u̶s̶a̶g̶e̶ ̶r̶o̶l̶l̶s̶ ̶o̶r̶ ̶m̶o̶r̶t̶g̶a̶g̶e̶s̶ ̶o̶r̶ ̶a̶n̶y̶t̶h̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶y̶ ̶c̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶a̶c̶t̶u̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶u̶n̶d̶e̶r̶s̶t̶a̶n̶d̶.̶ ̶N̶o̶w̶ ̶f̶u̶c̶k̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶p̶a̶s̶t̶ ̶c̶a̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶c̶a̶r̶r̶y̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶f̶a̶i̶l̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶w̶h̶a̶t̶e̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶r̶a̶i̶n̶ ̶w̶r̶e̶c̶k̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶a̶n̶ ̶e̶c̶u̶n̶o̶m̶y̶ ̶w̶e̶ ̶e̶n̶d̶ ̶u̶p̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶b̶e̶c̶a̶u̶s̶e̶ ̶d̶e̶m̶o̶c̶r̶a̶c̶y̶.̶ ̶W̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶a̶ ̶w̶a̶s̶t̶e̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶e̶n̶e̶r̶g̶y̶.̶
whatever -
A write-up of the Labour proposal.
I don't understand it yet.
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• #11658
It sounds like Switzerland to me.
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Hmm... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland%E2%80%93European_Union_relations
Yes, but Switserland was also warned about by those people called Experts well before the referendum.
It -may- be possible but not in this short timeline... and what will the UK give as a return?
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• #11661
Why's that?
I've spent some time in Konstanz and don't recall much in terms of border controls between the EU and Switzerland.
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• #11664
You did read that the position put forward was to join a customs union with the EU, right? And accept the necessary concessions for such a thing (four freedoms + have shared institutions)? Which presumably meant there would be no need for a custom's border. Which would, as far as I can tell, go a long way to solving the NI question?
I'm not saying this is the best option (far from it), but I don't see it as a 'cake and eat it' position. It's giving in to EU requirements to be a member in everything but name. Or worse, everything but name and right to have a say.
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Well, I don't understand yet what Starmer has in mind. I could imagine four scenarios (or a combination of some of them): (1) Labour are just bluffing and don't really have anything, (2) Starmer has some clever legal wheeze up his sleeve, (3) Labour have been having talks with European leaders to agree a position that the EU wants because it maintains EU institutions like the courts, and therefore Labour know they can put it forward as a serious proposal and make May look
sillyeven sillier, or (4) as has been widely speculated in the media, it's mainly a sop to Labour's internal party politics as the frontbench know it won't go anywhere in Parliament, anyway. -
After May responded by dodging the question
Come again?
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• #11670
I'm responding to your "sounds like Switzerland" comment.
You could have also pointed out that the UK doesn't have the Alps if you're looking for differences. It was a position which was neither membership to the EU, nor the EEA, yet highly integrated - that is all I meant by that.
With regards to cake and eat it, Corbyn has held, from day one, the position that he can convince the EU to grant the UK better conditions than those enjoyed by members of the EU, which I think is unlikely.
He's offered more concessions for access (all concessions?) than anyone else who is willing to negotiate a withdrawal. But I guess we're reading different things.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44377072?SThisFB
Labour has said it will abstain in Tuesday's vote on the EEA and put forward its own amendment - which rules out the free movement of people but calls for "no new impediments" to trade.
Switserland has FOM, with some local rules that employers must try to fill jobs locally first.
Soooooooooooooooooo I smell cherry picking. -
Abstaining in a two party system may as well be voting with the Tories.
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Concessions don’t matter, are indeed meaningless, unless they are inline with the requirements that all EU member states meet. FOM is one of these, and Corbyn won’t allow it. That rules out single market access, which means a border in Ireland, which means no withdrawal agreement, which means ejection on the 29th of March.
Unless Corbyn thinks that he can convince the EU 27 to allow the U.K. three freedoms whilst they all have to have four.
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• #11675
I've read the recent position as accepting the four freedoms ("no new impediments to trade and common rights..."), but accept I may have missed something which makes it clear that this does not include freedom of movement as a common right.
Obviously more clarification is necessary and I may be being optimistic, but I'm trying to work with what's been stated.
Dammit
JWestland
crossedthread
Oliver Schick
andyfallsoff
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About
EU referendum, brexit and the aftermath
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It’s a amendment to the EU Withdrawal bill that commits Labour to single market membership - the EU refer to what we call the single market as the internal market. This is a significant change in position.