Harry Quinn 653 Winter Training Build

Yesterday I went down to the Bristol Bike Jumble and bought this Harry Quinn frameset off a very nice chap.

The Plan:
I need a winter training bike as soon as possible so that I can rest up my summer bike. I have had a bike which fulfilled a similar purpose for the past couple of years; a 1990 Colnago Super with Athena 11 and Campag Scirrocco wheels. (Apologies for the plug) It's been a really nice bike but it's always felt like I was forcing an Italian racer out into the wet British winter for stacking up the miles against its will. The chain and cassette were well worn and the rims very concave so I decided that instead of replacing them, it was time for something new, I was incredibly fortunate that the nicest frame at the bike jumble fitted the bill.

The Frameset:

The frame is built of reynolds 653 and has a 59cm seat tube and 58cm top tube; 10mm shorter and 5mm longer than the 'nago. Stuffed in the seat tube was this, a copy of the original invoice from when the frame was built along with a note written by the seller saying that the frame is believed to have been built in 1993 (unfortunately there is no date on the invoice).

The seller also told me that the Q in front of the frame number meant that it was built by 'Quinny himself' and not his son. I'm planning to read up a bit more about the marque as this project progresses. The frame has quite a race-oriented geometry and also has mudguards eyelets. The clearances aren't massive but I will investigate exactly what I'll be able to get away with in terms of tyre and mudguard size.

Paint:

The original paintwork is in good condition, there are a few flakes around the FD clamp and the downtube decals but certainly no where near enough to warrant a re-spray. However, the 'Harry Quinn' decals on the DT and ST are recent replacements I believe, it looks like one of these jobs, not bad but I'm a bit concerned that they may peel up with no clear-coat on top. I'm not sure if the headbadge is original but I really like it:

The Build:

The first thing I did was swap the components I was taking off the Colnago (except gruppo and wheels) and switch them to the Quinn, here it is with Arundel stainless bottle cages, condor seat post, and erm.. Planet X saddle- might do something about that.

Since that I've also added down tube able stops and a 3ttt (3T?) stem and bar combo. The bar is an 'ergo power due'; I really like the shape of it so will stick with it. I won't feel any obligation to stay Italian with this like I did (to some extent) with the Colnago.

Bits to Get:

This leaves me with the two major selection choices: groupset and wheelset. Mudguards, rubber and bar tape are obviously also important; for the former I may make do with my raceblade longs initially and the latter are generally short lead-time and low cost so I'll think about them later.

Groupset:
I'm pretty certain that I'm going to go for 105 5800, it seems to be incredible value at £300 and I've never met anyone with a bad word to say about 105. It will be the first non-Campag groupset I've owned but I've always got on alright with the shifters on the occasions I've used Shimano before. A big motive for moving from Athena 11 is for the cheaper replacement parts, particularly chains and cassettes. For this reason it feels a bit silly to go back to 11 speed, however I much prefer the look of 5800 over 5750 and the reviews seem to suggest the performance is there too.

Silver seems to be the obvious choice but the black also appeals to me. I think some black components might the black and gold decals, though I'm not sure, thoughts? Too much of a mix might

If the headset/seatpost/cages are gonna be silver it seems odd to have a black group.

#justmyopinionman

I pulled the trigger on the groupset this morning- I didn't see much point in hanging around I'm pretty settled on the 5800, I went for silver. It was £325 from merlin cycles, but this included carbon 5800 pedals- something I've been considering for my summer bike, so I'll do some swapping around. Merlin also allowed me to get 175mm cranks which CR did not.

I've also realised that my 11sp campag wheels+casettes should work with the new 11sp shimano groupset, this should allow me to get the bike up and running very soon. This is good as I plan on taking my time wheels.

Wheels:

Handbuilt, 105 5800 hubs, 32+ spokes. These are the things I'm certain on concerning the wheels this bike will have. The main things to decide on are:

1. Who builds them: The internet (strada etc.), LBS (best place in Bristol?) or me.
   
2. Rims: Archetype, A23, Open Pro, Open sport, others?
   
   

I'm coming round more and more to the idea of building them myself; it's something I've always wanted to try and this (high spoke count, strong) seems to be the perfect place to start. The possible savings are also a bonus, but the satisfaction of building my own wheels is the main draw.

I think it's now time to do some proper research on different rims and also lacing patterns. The things I think I'm looking for are:

1. Long lasting braking surface- this will presumably mean hard and thick. I really hate worn rims, these will be used lots in the wet and I'd like them to last a while before re-building.

2. Wide- I'm pretty sold on the advantages on wide rims, these will never have tyres <25mm so it seems a no-brainer.

3. Classic looks- Despite the modern groupset, I'd like this bike to maintain a classic, British look. I think what will work will become more clear once I get the groupset on and can experiment with different wheelsets. I really like the look of classic ambrosio rims and also slightly older mavic ones, research is needed to see if I can get get anything which also meets the 'wide' criteria.

4. Strong- For ease of build and durability on bad British roads/lanes/occasional tracks.

5. Not too pricey- Don't really want to go too much above archetypes; willing to sacrifice a bit of weight in the old 'light,strong,cheap' adage.

6. I'm pretty sold on the idea of having more spokes drive side than non-DS, not sure if possible with 5800 hubs, research needed. I've also read about using heavier gauge spokes on ds than non-ds and front, this might be a nice way to run 32 f+r whilst still biasing strength where it's needed.

Any advice/thoughts on wheel choice would be appreciated, cheers

Yeah, I stopped being silly and realised this. I think black saddle, tape and tyres be enough for a nice balance.

I'm gonna go for silver 5800 hubs to be nice and matchy, also silver spokes but I'm unsure on rims. For example, the silver archetypes are very shiny shiny.

building your own wheels is possible.

I decided to based on the cost of components plus trueing stand and tensiometer being cheaper than getting a professional to do the same job. The added bonus being levelling up in bike skillz

Rim wise - I have found archetypes to be very solid after two winters commuting and training. For reference I am 100kg so if I can't break them.... I am sure there are other rim choices - mavic 319/719 or rigida sputnik ring bells but someone better informed than me will be along to give you the pros and cons of those rims.

Stick with 3 cross lacing if you want a simple, strong first build. Thinking about it, if you want a classic box profile, TB-14s might be the choice.

for this build i would be tempted to get some h+son tb14 rims, not cheap but look great and are apparently a v high build quality http://constructeur.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/TB-14-.jpg

also building wheels is great fun but first time i would definitely go 3 cross and keep it simple, it'll suit the frame as well as being plenty strong and stiff. Just me though

Oh, and you are aware of this?
http://www.lfgss.com/conversations/128002/

mavic a119 is also good value for price and looks proper classy in silver.

Yeah, the more I read, the more convinced I am to give it a go myself. I'm also in the fortunate position of having access to a Park TS2.2 truing stand, hadn't planned on getting a tensiometer but would you recommend?

I've been trawling the wheelbuilding thread for a while, it's a bit hard to know where to start but using the search function with rim names is proving useful.

@thrillho
I hadn't considered the TB-14s but they look stunning and certainly tick the classic aesthetics box, also the build quality sounds excellent. I'm not sure if they'll be slightly too retro when paired with 5800, I think I'll wait until I install the groupset to decide.

@FredyCro
They do look good, personally I think i'd go for the black (silver brake surface) version, but it is all personal :)

Cheers for you suggestions

I would spend ona tensiometer. Did my first build without and they are ok. On the second wheel build used the tensiometer and was surprised to find how much spoke tensions can vary whilst having a true wheel - tensiometer solved this.

The photo is my 59 cm Gazelle with archetype rims - should help you judge how they impact the classic look.

1 Attachment

hadn't planned on getting a tensiometer but would you recommend?

Just my 2p but I'd second getting a tensionmeter. You can bodge a truing stand using a bike frame without it making much difference (although a nice stand is nice), but having a tensionmeter to keep the tension even right from the start helps a lot IME and can't be worked around as easily.

Also if you want the rims to last wear wize then touring rims with thicker sidewalls will take more braking on than lighter Road rims.

On a 32h build just stick to 16 spokes on each side.

Having sudden doubts that maybe I should just keep my alloy Athena 11 speed groupset and return the 5800 when it arrives. It would mean having to buy new Campag 11 chain and cassette (not cheap) and not having a nice crisp new groupset though... I think I better sleep on it.

Cheers for the tension meter advice @fidbod and @hugo7, I'm certainly someone who likes solid numbers over vague 'feel'. I'm not sure I want to fork out for one just yet though, I'm unsure of how many wheels I'll end up building (certainly before I've even built one), if anyone was willing to lend me one for a couple of days in exchange for beer/money that might be really helpful.

I didn't see much point in hanging around as I'm pretty settled on the 5800

A lot can change in 24hrs.

I've put some bits of the Athena on the frame and I just can't see how the 5800 will look nearly as good. The Athena performs beautifully as well, especially since I forked out £65 last month to repair the RH shifter and upgrade it to the record body (and the added functionality which comes with it). This is what it looks like with my Scirroco wheels on (apologies for lack of air in rear tyre).

I've learnt my lesson from yesterday though and will hold out on spending any money or returning the 5800 for a day or two. Very fast delivery from Merlin cycles as it happens, sitting unopened in my hall:

I guess there's a reason why my projects normally take closer to 6 months than 6 days- thinking things through can help. That said, I'm finding that writing this thread is helping me consider my choices more and forcing me to justify my decisions; hopefully this will be to the benefit of the final build.

Wheels (again):

If I'm using Athena then I don't think 5800 hubs will suit the build. I know that they are very good hubs for my intended use, but that level of clashing is something I'd rather avoid. Also, I'm not even sure if you can buy 5800 rear hubs with a campagnolo free hub body?

Looking at campag hubs reminded me of a wheelset I have sitting in my cupboard from a 9 speed bike I had a couple of years ago (this is making me sounds pretty old I think, I'm only 21). They are Open Pro rims (plenty of life in the brake surface) laced onto old Campag mirage hubs, 32 spokes each. Perfect. Well, nearly- the front hub needs some attention, but being cup and cone, I should be able to sort it out with some patience. Also, the Open Pro rim is pretty narrow and over on the wheelbuilding thread the consensus seems to be that anything over 25mm will be a bit squirmy.

This isn't a massive problem as I'll likely be running 25mm initially but would like to experiment with 27mm to take advantage of the greater clearance on the Quinn frame (I'll post about this below). In order to save some dollar until I've shifted some bike bits, particularly the Colnago frameset, I will run these wheels to start with but still with a plan to build up my own at some point.

I think an interesting option to consider when selecting the hub for the build is using shimano 11 casettes/chains on campagnolo drivetrain; Lennard Zinn says here that it works perfectly. This might mean that it is still worth building on a shimano 11 free hub, the advantages being:

1. Cheaper casettes (Ultegra currently £32 chaper than chorus)
   
2. Not needing a £150 tool to install the oem chain
   
3. Perhaps easier to sell- the majority of people are after shimano free hubs. Thinking about it, this is very marginal and I don't really plan on selling some wheels that I have built myself anytime soon.
   
4. Possibly more versatile- can be used with shimano 9,10 drivetrains, but then it can't be used with campagnolo 9 & 10. Swings and roundabouts, I guess I just have to decide which I'm more likely to use these wheels on in the future.
   

I'm not even sure if you can buy 5800 rear hubs with a campagnolo free hub body?

Yes i doubt they do. But if you have 11 speed campag would you need a campag free hub body? I'd go with a shimano / Sram compatible free hub to keep costs down.

Fwiw I think the athena looks better. Plus if it's in working order once you get nice fresh cables on it I'm sure it will work as well as you need it to.

@hugo7
I may well do, though that causes a problem if I want to use the open pros I have before splashing out on handbuilts. The problem being that I'll buy a new campag cassette and probably (hopefully) won't wear it out before finishing the new wheels, which I'd transfer it to. I'm liking the look of amrobsio Zenith hubs which come in at £73 for the pair at totalcycling, not bad.

Switching from the long term plans of building wheels to the short term goals of getting the bike on the road, the things I need are:

1. Cables: Easiest just to go for the Campag set at £36 but hear very good things about the lifeline brake cable set and could pair them with the Transfil gear set for £24. The smaller size gear outer for Campag can cause problems but the Transfil seem to work fine.
   
2. English threaded ultra torque cups- will buy from LBS and get them to install.
   
3. Campag 11 chain- I've used the KMC one quite a few times in the past but it seems to wear really quickly. I think I'll get the same LBS to install a genuine Campag chain as well.
   
4. Casette - Probably 12-29 for long, hilly winter rides- It's what I had on the 'nago and I did use it, spin to win etc. £79
   
5. Bar tape- probably Cinelli Cork.
   
   

The first job is to take this front mirage hub apart and try and get it running smoothly.

what bars are on the gazelle?
look like noodles but somehow flatter on top.... look like what i'm after.

They are noodles. Just careful placement of the brifters and cable routing

thanks

I've put some bits of the Athena on the frame and I just can't see how the 5800 will look nearly as good.

One of those American hipster road bike look good with the modern Shimano;

This isn't a massive problem as I'll likely be running 25mm initially but would like to experiment with 27mm to take advantage of the greater clearance on the Quinn frame (I'll post about this below).

Do you think there's enough room for 27mm tyres and proper mudguard?

Lennard Zinn said they works perfectly but the tech show that the Campag and SRAM/Shimano are not 100% exactly the same, so when I put a bike up on the stand, I can hear a slight chain rub on the cassette that's not obvious on the road.

I like the Victorian hall floor tiling best, have you ever lived offworld?

Fair point, it's a stunning bike and did make me think when I saw it a couple of days ago. I'm not sure it would look quite as nice with the Shimano crankset (and brakes?) though.

Re: Clearance
This is the rear with 25mm Gatorskins and Raceblade Long:

and the front:

On the back there's 8mm between tyre and the bracket for the mudguard. On the front it's definitely tighter and a bit harder to measure as I need to cut/file the raceblade's bracket down so that I can raise it without it hitting the underside of the headset.

So, I think 27mm with the Raceblade Longs will work, proper mudguards (eg. PDW) is a different story; I'd guess that rear would be ok but I'm not sure about front. What do you reckon?

Edit: looking at the front again, that's definitely not enough room for 27mm+guards is it? I like the raceblade longs so will probably stick with them for a while.

I think the best thing to do is to get the mudguard sorted before you get the tyres, this way you can be certain if the 27mm will fit.

Failing that, the other option is going for a wider rims that increase the tyres size from 25mm to 26/7mm, the benefit is that you can run it at similar pressure as a 28mm while feeling nice and planted like a 23mm.