Track rims/hubs advice

so, I accidentally bought a track champion frame on ebay (didn't think I'd win it, and starting to regret it in my now sober state...) and I'd like to build a nice set of training and (assuming I can get fit this winter) racing wheels for the velodrome. Velodrome use only, so I don't need brake tracks or anything and my only real stipulation is that they're solid black.

Options I've been looking at are all around the novatec (on one) laced to chinese crabon tub rims with decent spokes which should come in around £250 or so.

I don't think I want ellipses as I think I can build a better set for less and I kinda want tubs.

I'm not a particularly fast rider but I'm planning to be eventually, so I'd like to get some decent wheels now so I don't have to buy again later.

Main questions:
Are novatec the best bang for my buck?
What depth rims?
Aero spokes - worth it?

I know tester recommended kinlin tubs and novatec hubs as a good combo, but they have a silver brake track and that ruins the whole look for me (I know it's not meant to be important, but... Ya know?)

So, come at me.

If someone can offer me something already built then I could be tempted, but I'm confident that I can build a decent set myself.

Ta.

Get the kinlins and colour in the brake track with a paint pen. I did this on a front ellipse I bought that had been braked on.

And yes to Novatec and yes to aero spokes if they're in budget.

This was another option... Is the consensus likely to be "don't bother with Carbon until you can hold your own in a race"?

I'm going to be riding at York so the scene is a bit different to HHV. Bit worried about being thought of as 'all the gear'.

My 2p

Why not use mavic reflex tubs? Nice grey rims, no brake track, inexpensive (£35 per rim), strong and light. They're also pretty easy to get a tub seated on/stretched over.

Mine have never put a foot wrong and I actually almost prefer them to my 'race' wheel set (rear disc and 55mm carbon front). You don't need wide rims on the track (unless you're buying zipps) as you'll be running 22mm tubs at high pressure.

If you are not racing I wouldn't bother with carbon, other than for vanity reasons. Same goes for aero spokes. Lots of people would disagree, but i just dont see the point. If you start racing, are super fit and still losing races by half a wheel then you might want to buy some speed.

Novatec are the the same as the on-one hubs PX are currently selling for 17quid a pop (silver only though..). There's not much that's significantly better until you get to Dura Ace.

If you build those PX hubs onto reflex rims, with sapim race spokes and get Vittoria Pista CS tubs on offer from chain reaction for £17 you could have a lovely set of wheels and tyres for around £175. Spend the savings on chainrings :)

I can't see 32h CD reflexes for less than £55 though. They are nice but I think they suit steel better than ALU. If I could find some for sensible dollar then I'd be tempted though.
Kinlins seem like the sensible way to get tubs on a budget, tbh. Is paint pen just going to look shit though?

Is paint pen just going to look shit though?

Probably, but as you're going to have the loose rims, other options are available, e.g. buy silver rims, put some masking tape on the tyre bed and then spray the whole lot black. Or get them anodised, as you don't have eyelets to worry about, although this might be relatively expensive due to the large size occupying the whole bath.

That's a good point. Factoring in anodising, is that not just going to push the price up to a point where it's worth getting a better rim that's all black already?

As you're here, tester; is there any aero advantage to a kinlin Tb 25 over a reflex?

Are there any good value solid black tub rims out there? Am I right in thinking aero>rotational weight for general track use?

is there any aero advantage to a kinlin Tb 25 over a reflex?

Very little, if any.

Are there any good value solid black tub rims out there?

Are there any metal tub rims out there at all? Not really. In the olden days, we had dozens of choices readily available (Mavic, Wolber, Super Champion, Nisi, Ambrosio, Araya, Campagnolo all had numerous different models), now you can count them on the fingers of one hand.

Am I right in thinking aero > rotational weight for general track use?

To be honest, for general track use cheap beats out all other factors. Any rim will be strong enough in 32h, none of the metal ones will be much different from an aerodynamic point of view, and they all weigh the same for practical purposes, from Ambrosio Crono F20 at ~360g to Kinlin at ~430g is not going to make any difference.

If you actually want faster wheels, the cheapest change to your current spec would be to get 24h rims and hubs.

Silver 32h reflex here at £33.99
3 left
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/mobile/mavic-reflex-tubular-road-rim-2014/rp-prod71073

Is 24h gonna be alright for me at 13 stone? Would be track use only.

It's OK for me at 15st, just don't use superlight spokes if you're worried about stiffness. Sapim CX or DT New Aero or similar shaped Pillar or CN will fit the On-One 24h hubs, or use DT Comps or equivalent if you don't want to splash out on bladed. I never had any question about the Ellipses with only 20 spokes, and that was when I was heavier and riding the tiny Calshot track which generates bigger loadings.

Are there any metal tub rims out there at all?

There are still some super classy NOS campag Omega box section and V.

Yeah, York is 250m with big bends so gonna take more of a beating than at HHV. Perhaps Kinlin 24h, on one/novatec and CX Is the way forward. Plus tubs should come in way under £200.
Need to find £100 for some forks as well. Is there a better option than alpinas from Dolan for a track champ?

The Alpina fork is pretty bombproof, you'd need to spend more to get something better.

NOS campag Omega box section and V.

I looked at those for my bike, and I looked again for this thread, and I still couldn't see what advantage they had over Kinlin apart from snobbishness.

The vs are a sort-of domed profile, similar to an Archetype. The clinchers are really stiff (I've no experience of the tubular version). They've no flat or machined braking surface, which might be desirable for track wheels (unless you want to ride to the track).

i'm after a track wheelset too, and after giving up playing with tubular wolber super champions laced to ambrosio high flange. I decided to build up a set with NOS cxp10's they are aero and quite light(438 g). Using DA7600 HF or DA7710 LF. And with vittoria diamante pista mounted(150g) with lightweight innertube combo it can be lighter or equal to vittoria pista tubs(270g)

Haven't decided yet which, as i would prefer soldered spokes to make it stiffer. Using high flange hub would make sense because spoke would be shorter and therefore stiffer. But really how much difference does the size of the hub flange makes ? Does it really correlates that much ? Any advice appreciated.

P.S. thought about mavic reflexes too. Dont really mind about CD or not. By the way. There was £20 rim on evans exdemo/soiled list. So it's a good spot to look out for someone who is after one.

Isn't the soldering thing a myth? I thought it was done to save the bike of you snapped a spoke and has no effect on actual stiffness. That's what Musson says, anyway.

is it ? I always thought that is done for stiffness. Well it adds some safety factor if you accidentally halfweel someone during race

That's what I always thought, but as Musson points out - think about the stresses involved in spokes, a tiny bit of solder isn't going to make any difference if they're tensioned correctly. I think it's to stop them flying out in a crash, as you say.

i would prefer soldered spokes to make it stiffer

They won't make it stiffer

Using high flange hub would make sense because spoke would be shorter and therefore stiffer.

Not stiffer to any meaningful degree. And not even shorter for tangential spokes, so it's moot anyway.

re there any metal tub rims out there at all? Not really. In the olden days, we had dozens of choices readily available (Mavic, Wolber, Super Champion, Nisi, Ambrosio, Araya, Campagnolo all had numerous different models), now you can count them on the fingers of one hand.

Not really. Many of the tubular rims of yore are still relatively easy to source NOS. The carbon craze has not only revigorated the supply of tubular tyres but also liberated many wonderful alloy rims from their stashes as their owners abandon 32 and 36 spoke holes and alu for the lure of carbon acustics. Carbon has even helped to rereanimate wooden rims. The supply of good alu rims is so large that, pending a big market swing draining the market, the future continues to shine for them. That all said.. there are a number of rims still being made that are really good.. For a robust rim the Amborsio Nemesis, for example, can't be beat--- . the Crono/F20 is also as good a 350g class rim as were made. And Sub-300g rims? Old Weltmeisters, Egals, Argent 7s, and ... I'll have to admit "carbon can do it better" when the goal is...

Crashes are an important factor:
Don't buy things that are fragile and don't buy things that you can't afford to replace.
I guess that applies more to rims than it does to hubs.

Crashes are an important factor:

Hence my earlier comment that 'cheap' is the most attractive attribute in a track rim, & my oft-repeated advice that anybody who needs posh wheels will no longer be paying for their own.

Pretty much