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DITCH ALL ASLs and ALL CYCLE 'LANES'
Replace with strict liability, 20mph and enforce the rules of the road.
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The title kept reminding me of a Might Boosh song.
Nanageddon - The Mighty Boosh | Series Two | Episode Three - YouTube
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The biggest issues is that it'll create a backlash with many cyclists claiming it's a bad move, and give the illusion that cyclist have less right than originally thought by drivers.
Like when Southwark Council decided not to tart up the badly positioned/unecessary bike lanes on some of its narrower roads. Some extremists, presumably those who like riding as close as possible to parked cars and gutters, actually called this "murder of cyclists". -
The bunch can have such variable skills. Look at how many are likely to scoot to get moving, people who can't use their gears, a wide variety of bikes, gearing, fitness etc. It is unlikely they can move off as one mass.
True though depending on numbers there may be bunches of different speeds. All people can't move at the speed of the slowest rider though. Still cooperation as a principle of urban riding would improve people's skills. More and better communication between people
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The title kept reminding me of a Might Boosh song.
Nanageddon - The Mighty Boosh | Series Two | Episode Three - YouTube
Beat you to it, Ed:
http://www.lfgss.com/thread50817-50.html#post2756522 -
ASLs need to be bigger, enough to get a critical mass of riders ahead percolating through the cars past the drivers and the riders should stick together as a bunch and stay bunched as they move off. Taking whole lanes
We need to get you your own TV show, skydancer, so you can spread your message to the masses :)I'm personally not a fan of cycling with a whole load of people I don't know to be fairly competent riders (I'm thinking - Sky Ride).
It makes me really nervous and go much faster.
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I would rather give people I don't know a wide birth than be hemmed in by them.
Why hemmed in? Your skills should ensure you don't get hemmed in
I'm personally not a fan of cycling with a whole load of people I don't know to be fairly competent riders (I'm thinking - Sky Ride).
It makes me really nervous and go much faster.
Nervous of what?
Commuters on the main roads are not mostly sky-rider families (yet) -
cooperation as a principle // improve people's skills. More and better communication between people
Can we add courtesy, consideration, The Golden Rule, calm, forgiveness, and a determined intention to "make progress" using all of the above. It's an ideal. It does, in fact, generally work. But this is London's famous London.
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I think our notions of bunch riding are different, for me it is near bar to bar, draughting the person in front. This is not something I'd want to do with people I don't know, whose skills I don't trust.
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However a comment such as "those cyclists they always go down the inside" after a fatality could be victim blaming. It presupposes that going down the left side was the cause of the collision, or that it is unlawful.
There is a lot confusion about the risk areas around lorry.If there is a relatively narrow gap then it is unlikely the lorry will be turning left. If the lorry starts to move that is not a good place to be. There is even more risk of an unexpected turn if the lorry is further away, even in the second lane.The new police 'exchanging places' video puts it nicely:
"the more space a lorry has left you the more likely it is that he's going to turn left".
"the more tempting it looks the more dangerous it is" -
Just read this: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/matt-glass/london-cyclist-deaths_b_4298701.html
Sorry if it's a repost.
Starts well, then gets to ranting... but there's still some good stuff in there.
I didn't realise there's no such thing as road tax, for example. -
I would argue that if rather more cyclists would accept certain fucking obvious things like -
helmets can help in *some *circumstances (this does not mean i'm telling you to wear one or that it should be law)
and
other things being equal being able to hear makes you more aware of what is around you and therefore safer
and
other things being equal hi viz at night makes you more likely to be seen
then it would be a lot easier to get to a sensible debate over the much more important things.
this is pretty much my view on things. there are a fuckload of points that drivers need to accept too, in order to have a reasoned debate on the subject.
I'd say the focus has to be on what is actually scientifically proven.
Is there a link between wearing headphones/accidents? According to the data set CTC researched, no. So while intuitively you'd think it's more risky, the data doesn't back this up.
Is there a link between lorry / cyclist collisions and higher death rates? Absolutely. Now what to about this is another thing.
Is there a link between less severe injuries/less total injuries and helmet wearing? Inconclusive on reduction of injuries, reduction in cycle in some areas.
I personally follow the road rules, but expect others not to do so. Which is good as otherwise I would have been scooped up 3 times last year by cars that were supposed to give way to me. Legally they would have been at fault. Anecdotal evidence is suspect though ;)
and this is the argument against. all twaddle. imo, of course. all these things above provide small increases in safety and awareness, yet studies back up one's decision to not do it for whatever reason. fuck me.
There are two problems here, people piloting vehicles and cyclists. both have to try and make things safer, yet both are being ignorant and arguing over minor details rather than meeting as close to the best possible solution.
Get fucked, Jeez. This is low, even for you, you tedious troll.
how? it's a valid point.
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I always feared some sort of car vs bike sides taking place as soon as cycling started to get popular again. I started back in 87 aged 14 (when it was pretty much underground and a low key minority sport), in the meantime I gave up and started MTBing before starting back on the road some 3 years ago.
It truly scares the shit outta me that theres so much hate about us on the roads, reading all comments from non cyclist road users on the comments section of most news websites displays a horrifying level of ignorance and prejudice directed at us.
I have to confess at times it makes me want to sell up and scuttle back to darting off road on the MTB once more....though I probably won't as consider myself pretty fortunate living in Worcs where its a slower pace generally.
How the f**k have we ended up here folks...I sometimes really worry about where this is all going!!!??
In meantime...stay safe and please keep your wits about you!!
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Why hemmed in? Your skills should ensure you don't get hemmed in
Nervous of what?
Commuters on the main roads are not mostly sky-rider families (yet)
It isn't the Sky Rider families I'm wary of, specifically.I'm nervous of any cyclist I don't know, doing stupid things to put mine, their own or other people's lives at risk, but especially during rush hour when it's busy and there's an additional air of competitiveness/rushing stress/aggro, especially on the Cycle Superhighways.
I don't think it's fair or helpful to attribute crap riding skills to one particular cycling 'tribe'. It's bad enough that we have such a 'them vs us' relationship between cyclists and other road users.
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And another thing. Is there any evidence that the driver was at fault for any of these 6 tragic collisions? If not then in the absence of evidence one way or another should we attribute blame 50/50, should we just blame the driver because they are the ones with the bigger vehicle, or should we just assume that collisions are one of those things that just happens?
I am all for massive steps to reduce the harm that drivers cause on the roads. This should be the vast majority of our focus. But not at the expense of helping cyclists ensure that they take responsibility for their own safety too.
Really mate why don't you just shut your troll hole.
Enough already, time to stop. -
It might be because I'm old and slow, but I can genuinely say I've never felt antagonised by other road users while riding in London. I re-started riding bicycles in 2003, after a 15 year break, and it has been the best thing I've ever done. That could be because my reactions are different if faced with misguided aggression, or age has allowed me to read the situation in advance. no idea, but riding in London is much better than it is in the shires, where roads are narrower, and expectations are different. Other people are not out to get us, nor do they hate us, despite the vocalising in the various "comments" sections of the media. Chill, guys and girls, and, as the person above says, keep safe.
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I'm going to wade in. If we're thinking of how to generally improve road safety, I've thought of a basic strategy:
If a driver is caught committing an offense – a choice between a fine and a road safety/cyclist awareness course (like speed awareness courses for speeders)
If a cyclist is caught committing an offense – a choice between a fine and cycle training/cycle safety course
Cycle to Work scheme to include compulsory cycle training.
The driving test is expanded to include more points on how to behave around cyclists and teach why cyclists do things like ride in primary position
Every school, university, institute and large company offers it's students and employees government subsidised free cycle training AND free road safety training (I'm thinking nationally as lots of people drive to work outside Central London)
Basically I think education is the key for all parties, with cycle training and road safety training encouraging users to understand and acknowledge one another. Only then can everyone start to communicate in the way Skydancer describes upthread.
Yes, drivers are the ones that will kill someone if they make a mistake but cyclists can also put themselves in danger just because they don't know any better and by pushing both cyclist and driver education with equal force you don't get the finger-pointing at the other group for getting off lightly. There has to be a balance both for political reasons and for practical reasons. It's no good hammering home the rules of the road in one party if the other is left ignorant. You can nurture the most informed, considerate cyclists in the world but if drivers still don't understand why there's someone riding in primary in front of them it's not going to help the general levels of aggression we see daily.
There will always be shit drivers and shit cyclists, but if a campaign of information is implemented now and doing cycling training or a cyclist awareness course becomes 'the norm', and if all new users from their very first driving lesson or first bike have these lessons ingrained to their experiences, then in 5-10 years time there may be fewer shit drivers and shit cyclists.
/2p
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Part of the problem is that some of the feelgood factor about cycling has been lost in the steady hammering home of the 'dangerisation' message. This started long before the terrible events of the last two weeks. For years, the press improved its reporting of cycling and fewer 'I hate cyclists' columns appeared. You will have noticed that these are back with a vengeance.
The worrying thing is that there appears to be a slowing of cycling growth in London (Gilligan wrote this just before he was appointed Cycling Commissioner). We need to await the Travel in London Report 6, which should come out in the next few weeks, for confirmation or denial of this change in trend.
Should it be confirmed, it would be too early to tell whether there may be a correlation, but it wouldn't be the first time that an exaggeration of the risk in cycling had done harm to its continued growth. Scaring people off bikes (and away from walking) is a standard tactic that has been employed since at least the 1920s, when certain interests set out to claim the roads, then still mainly populated by people on bikes, on foot, on horseback, or using various forms of horse-drawn carts and carriages, with users of motor vehicles very much in a small minority. It can only be hoped that the numbers blogged about by Gilligan are a temporary blip.
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^ This was not a reply to either Alex, Jess, or Richard, by the way.
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Does he even crank? I mean properly, not just when there are journos around for photo ops?
#Gilligan's gut
today, apparently
dancing james
edscoble
Miss_Mouse
rwn
36x18
charlie_lcc
.gaz.
spindrift
BRM
ffm
tarloone
JaRyder
Scoot
Oliver Schick
_Leon-
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Blood on the streets
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@skydancer
The bunch can have such variable skills. Look at how many are likely to scoot to get moving, people who can't use their gears, a wide variety of bikes, gearing, fitness etc. It is unlikely they can move off as one mass.