Blood on the streets

or a toad pinned to their lapel.

Don't you know it's national toad week? Where is your toad badge?

Again if I say 'I was hit by a van driver' people will think a van driver punched me, not collided with me in his van.

When you collide with a vehicle, it is the vehicle that you physically hit, not the driver. The driver may be responsible, not the vehicle, but he's inside his little bubble of steel and glass. Until he gets out and you slap him upside the head there is no collision between you and the driver.

"some bellend in a van sideswiped me while yapping on his mobile"

"a guy in a prius rear-ended me at a traffic light and he doesn't even pay any road tax"

"this bint drove into me when she decided she fancied being in the lane I was in at the time"

"some bellend in a van sideswiped me while yapping on his mobile"

"a guy in a prius rear-ended me at a traffic light and he doesn't even pay any road tax"

"this bint drove into me when she decided she fancied being in the lane I was in at the time"

Blimey, you had a bad day. Still, if if you take these hasty, rash, precipitous decisions we’re seeing sometimes, then you will be endangering your life.

I dare say you will ;-)

It's just a bit galling to see the 'they do this and that' constantly. 'they' don't, though some do. Despite choosing to encase themselves in metal, most drivers are normal and rational and care for those around them to a certain degree. The same as most cyclists. Maybe because most cyclists are also regular drivers.

Sorry to join late but there is something that happens to the most rational of people when they get behind the wheel of a car. Just like the changes some experience when they get on to an aeroplane.

Or a bicycle.

or put on leather trousers.

And then ride a bicycle.

Blimey, you had a bad day. Still, if if you take these hasty, rash, precipitous decisions we’re seeing sometimes, then you will be endangering your life.

I was basically asking for it by wearing leather trousers on a bike in the first place :(

"some bellend in a van sideswiped me while yapping on his mobile"

"a guy in a prius rear-ended me at a traffic light and he doesn't even pay any road tax"

"this bint drove into me when she decided she fancied being in the lane I was in at the time"

I think this my point: words are an arbitrary symbol that only carry meaning that is mutually agreed upon. What is most important is the motive behind them.

So debating nuances of that meaning is a distraction. What is more important is what people are attempting to express rather than the intricacies of how they express them. One man's gander is another man's goose. I prefer not to be told how to express myself.

The solution is simple - banned HGVs from rush hour.

It's not exactly the solution to end all solution, but it's a start in the right direction to dramatically drop the number of cyclists being killed.

I've done a few HGV driver training courses and came away with a few thoughts from the last one:

The drivers aren't happy that they're were forced to turn up to this session with a couple of pricks in hi viz on a Saturday feeling they were going to be lectured to and told why they're such bad people by a pair of cyclists. The hostility and rage was palpable. Opening comment was to be called "a fucking cunt". That gave way to massive frustration. They - like messengers- are doing jobs where they are paid for how much they get done and their working conditions apply a lot of pressure. And their jobs aren't made easier when all they (selectively) see of cyclists is the typical RLJing and exhibiting zero patience at junctions by skateboarding along the kerb just to get to the front. I was driven in car at rush hour and got an understanding of that fear when you're swarmed at junctions.

I would like to see cyclists that get caught rljing put face to face with some of these guys just to see some of the effect of their actions on others. I'm perplexed at the cuts in enforcement as they'd make a lot of dough from driver infringements. How many times have you been riding with a twitchy driver in tow, you both see a cop car and that driver seems much further back than before?

And I know this will not be popular but I really do not see any proper dutch style revolution anytime soon, just more of the botched inadequate nonsense. Best thing cyclists can do for themselves in this climate is training courses and make the best riders of themselves possible rather than solely putting the onus on others and hoping for a sea change in 'their' mentality. Give themselve a fighting chance and maybe decipher lines of best fit i.e. just because the magic pigment goes there , maybe the entrance/exit to that sideroad may not be the best place for me to go.

I I prefer not to be told how to express myself.

Jimmy, don't take it so personally. When training nervous or novice cyclists on road you would be surprised what a difference this simple change in terminology makes. And it's weird; people see themselves as drivers but they do not think it is drivers that they are scared of - it is cars or buses or trucks. When you encourage them to think about the people in those vehicles, drivers just like themselves, it helps to alleviate their fears. It encourages them, for example, to realise the why it helps to look behind, to make eye contact where possible or at least show their face - because they realise that cars are not driven by robots and cyclists need to communicate with the person in the car, a person just like themselves.
It's noticeable even when teaching children - they are less afraid, or less irrationally afraid, of motor traffic when you get them to think about and talk about the people in those vehicles. People like their parents, who they know are not out to hurt anyone. So if their parents aren't, why should anyone else be?
Maybe you are not convinced Jimmy, I would agree that it sounds implausible and even trivial, but it is not. It is a small distinction that makes a big difference.

They - like messengers- are doing jobs where they are paid for how much they get done and their working conditions apply a lot of pressure.

i see this as a problem:

HGV drivers being paid in relation at all to "how much they get done" - in the shortest time possible

vs. there being a law ensuring HGV drivers can only work max. X hours in one go, and only be paid for time, not in relation to being fast (and more likely to kill people)

And their jobs aren't made easier when all they (selectively) see of cyclists is the typical RLJing and exhibiting zero patience at junctions by skateboarding along the kerb just to get to the front. I was driven in car at rush hour and got an understanding of that fear when you're swarmed at junctions.

I would like to see cyclists that get caught rljing put face to face with some of these guys just to see some of the effect of their actions on others.

can't the HGV drivers just chill out and wait for the swarm to ride on...

... actually, yes these people are right, HGVs and urban areas with cyclists and pedestrians is a problem

leave your HGV at the outskirts of the city please,

small human-scale zero-emission vehicles only please

its a choice really isn't it:

city with HGVs allowed to roam

vs.

city / urban area without HGVs; cyclists afforded better chance of survival, more people employed, less emissions...

<<< HGVs outta Lundun-town - please >>>

Blimey, you had a bad day. Still, if if you take these hasty, rash, precipitous decisions we’re seeing sometimes

Boris is that you?

Let just wait till an MP is killed while cycling.

With any luck it will be plebgate.

can't the HGV drivers just chill out and wait for the swarm to ride on...

... actually, yes these people are right, HGVs and urban areas with cyclists and pedestrians is a problem

leave your HGV at the outskirts of the city please,

small human-scale zero-emission vehicles only please

How can you have a system where a HGV gets to a junction first, there maybe no asl but the presence of asl's in London leave cyclists believing they have the absolute right to always get to the front first irrespective of road conditions (e.g. light phasing, traffic density and lighting) and you really think that a hgv would or should just sit there and ignore the green light and sit there? That would be total chaos, and lead to frayed tempers and even more aggression on the roads.

Surely the counter argument would be why can't the swarm just chill and let the Hgv go first?

The only way we'll see swift change is when decision makers and those with the power to effect change have their loved ones also wiped out.
To change peoples (poor/selfish road users) mind set quick, they have to be hit in the pocket (via better enforcement) through strict liability laws.

What does this mean, "small human-scale zero-emission vehicles"?

I meant to add to my HGV csb despite being called a fucking cunt for having the temerity to ride a bicycle, I'd much rather the driver vented all of his anger, spend the day with us and leave with a much more rounded view of folk on two wheels and the issues surrounding the wretched infrastructure rather than carry that level angst behind the wheel of 20+ tonnes of metal.

I learnt to drive when it was cheap, £10 a lesson and 3rd party insurance on my Mini was 'only' £300.

I also had bike training at school when fake roads were made with old fabric firehoses and little road lights were made at the junctions.

I also drove 7.5T vans because I could at the time with a standard car licence.

I bike to work, drive a car and still drive a 7.5T every now and again.

I think where I'm going is that nowadays few 18+ cyclists now what is like to drive a car as it is so expensive to get lessons or buy a car (unless Bank of Mum and Dad get involved).

There has been no cycle training at schools since the 80's.

You are lucky that people need extra training to drive a 7.5T nowadays. I hadn't a clue when I first got into the cab! o_0

How can you have a system where a HGV gets to a junction first, there maybe no asl but the presence of asl's in London leave cyclists believing they have the absolute right to always get to the front first irrespective of road conditions (e.g. light phasing, traffic density and lighting) and you really think that a hgv would or should just sit there and ignore the green light and sit there? The would be total chaos, and lead to frayed tempers and even more aggression on the roads.

Quite. It would be better if some inconsiderate HGV drivers paid a little more attention to their driving and obeyed the rules of the road. It would be better if some people on bikes took a little more care for their own safety and if they too obeyed the rules of the road. If both of these were done, the world would be a better, safer and less antagonistic place for us all. I see no inconsistency between the two.

small human-scale zero-emission vehicles only please

Ah...

There has been no cycle training at schools since the 80's.

This isn't true.

There's still not as much cycle training in schools as there should be (i.e. it's not part of the curriculum) but it is there, and the situation is improving. That's too late to help the adults in-between, but training is available for them too. But they need to be made aware of it, and be successfully encouraged to try it.

Someone posted recently that motorcyclists were, from an insurance claims point of view, significantly better car drivers.

Given that insurance is so expensive these days it would be nice to see discounts offered for proving that you are trained to operate other vehicle types- including bicycles.

There has been no cycle training at schools since the 80's.

This is a dismaying misconception. In an hour I will be at a primary school in Hackney for the second week of the five week cycle training course that is being run there. As will be many of my colleagues at all the other schools in Hackney that run courses every term. And it's the same in other London boroughs and around the country.
There's a discussion about the merits of running these courses in Year 5 and 6 rather than in years 7 or 8 (which many of us would prefer if the school curriculum allowed) but they do exist.