Pre 1950s rides of LFGSS: old bikes, vintage rats, classic lightweights

I'm also in the process of trying to get to grips with cotter pin cranks.

This Sheldon Brown page is superb for an overview of removal and installation - https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cotters.html

The size of the pin depends on the size of the hole on the crank arms, From reading up British cranks are generally 9.5mm and French can be either 9 or 8.5mm - I think.

It appears that the pins have to be filed before installation of crank arms to ensure that they are a good fit.

Do you already have Bottom Bracket cup's?

This old thread on here https://www.lfgss.com/conversations/172522/
Looks like a 115mm spindle will suit.

I don't understand the 42mm chainline measurement though, Where are you measuring for this?

I'm still trying to figure my way through it and others on here may have better suggestions /advice :)

Another thread on fitting tips https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/1211327-fitting-cotter-pins.html

I don't understand the 42mm chainline measurement though, Where are you measuring for this?

Is that not the standard chainline for track hubs? Admittedly I haven't measured my actual chain;line but googled "track chainline" and that seemed to be what was mentioned in a few places.

Do you already have Bottom Bracket cup's?

Sadly not, they must have gotten lost/discarded at some point.

I only have the cranks and a few cotter pins which I'm about to check if they fit in the cranks.

Edit, yup cotter pins fit the cranks.

Very nice cranks.
As for the BB, it's all about patience playing the waiting game.
I would look out for a Baylis Wiley set if possible there normally the most common and of very good quality. Chater lea are good but expensive.
TDC are the lowest quality but if I found a good set at the right price I would get them

BB cups, English threading which most will be.
You will need the BW model 15 axle sometimes marked ngcc. "Non gear case something", The length is 121mm so if it's not BW then look out for a similar length.
The cotter pins are the easy bit, pick up new on line or from a good LBS. English not Continental.
I wouldn't bother with old cotter pins as old pins tend to have damaged threads.

Now, though Most brands are interchangeable and there are plenty of second hand options out there what takes the time is finding a set in good condition with good bearing surfaces.

I've filed pins to fit cranks before but apparently this isn't a good idea, as hand filing can lead to the misalignment of the crank arm and axle? (and I get that - am no an engineer, just a bodger with a record vice - c.1930 - on a bench likely at least as old as my great-great- grand-parents, and a bunch of rasps.) The ones I 'milled' ended up being a bit sloppy and needed tightening after a most rides (but that might be completely usual? Or I'm an idiot. Likely the latter.) But, the alternative seems to be a pin press which are about £300 or a trip to an LBS who's got one?
edit
apologies, boring and not helpful contribution.

H Lloyd do waterslide now, I even sent them a little "Criterium" script decal recently to print as part of a Hobbs project underway.

Thanks,
I’ve been in contact with Nick at Lloyd’s.
I need to get my artwork scanned and into a vector pdf so he can print it.
But the more I’ve read about it, the less I’m sold on it having to be waterslide over printed vinyl.

I’ve been pretty disappointed with vinyl decals. Not sure if I just haven’t asked for the right thing, but all the ones I’ve had so far are really raised on the tube. Another vintage bike fancier described them as like being ‘carved from stone’ 😂

Nice looking Gillott
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/402658986340

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Original paint.
Bronze and enamel headbadge makes it an early one, I can’t remember when they started painted aluminium ones.
Alp /CLB brake-set and saddle are good too.
Cool to see the old parts too, same Gnutti chainset I’m going to put on mine.

Nice.

There are several points I can add to this discussion - I'll put them in separate posts.

First let me deal with metrication.

As an old bloke I tend to favour imperial measurements, but I would not try to convert parts made in metric to imperial. By the same token it's clear to me that a lot of problems have arisen by converting imperial measures to metric; for one thing it's common for the conversions to be inaccurate.

So, if we're dealing with old British made products, I believe it's best to stick to imperial for example:

Traditional chainline: One and a half inches. (BSA was 1.125")
Rear Fork ends (single gear:) Four and quarter inches.
Cotter Pin dia.: Three eigths of an inch.

There are plenty of other examples. With these cotter pin and chain line problems there's no need for deadly accuracy because there's quite a lot of tolerance - I have a strong suspicion that the idea that chain line needed to be exact stemmed from English commercial interests which disliked derailleur gears. However there are some parts of a bike where accuracy is essential - for example headsets, particularly the fit of the crown race to the forks. My experience is that new headsets don't fit old British forks (crown race too big) and I guess this is the result of faulty imperial/metric conversion.

So in the context of cotters and chainline on British bikes I just wish we had stuck to imperial measure.

Next post: Extracting cotter pins.

Removing Cotter Pins

I'm sure I've described this before on here, but I'll try again.

First point: Special presses and other elaborate bits of kit are not necessary.

My procedure is as follows:

You need a smallish hammer and a vice (or some other means of supporting the crank). I use an old bench vice (fairly small) which is not attached to a bench.

Unscrew retaining nut until it is exactly flush with the top of the thread (If there's not much thread projecting it may help to remove the washer).

Open the jaws of the vice just enough for the non threaded end of the pin to pass freely through them.

Now rest the vice on something solid (I use bricks) next to a wall (to support the bike). Lift the bike onto the vice so the the top of the crank is on the vice with the pin projecting into the partially open jaws.

Using the hammer, give the threaded end of the pin a sharp tap. Concentrate on hitting the pin straight to avoid bending the thread. The pin will almost always come out with a couple of blows.

It seems to me that most of the difficulties people have with getting the pins out are caused by failing to support the crank rigidly enough.

Keep the old cotter pin - it may well give many more years of service!

Thanks @clubman I'm hoping there will be a part 3: 'Installing Cotter Pins' :)

To confirm I've managed easy/successful removal using the method exactly as you describe, possibly even after reading wherever you previously described it.

I have accumulated some nice cottered cranks now and really should use some of them. [Part of my fondness for Stronglight is install / removal is easy (with the extractor).]

I plan to read the links and Sheldon etc. but any tips appreciated.

^ and this is why Stronglight invented the square taper bottom bracket in 1933 (!)

Cotterpins are a ballache.
My removal method is similar but I have a block of oak that sits on the floor and supports the crank which has a hole drilled for the pin to get knocked into. A dead-blow hammer is good.

Ha yep, hard to see past them. Easy to use, light, a lot produced / still available, not the prettiest but not bad lookers. I've got a 1947 ROH build underway and found this letter looking through Cycling in the VCC library (Cycling, Second Series, 1947 01 08 Jan). They are in the 1950 Fonteyn catalogue as 'Stronglight's famous cotterless cranks...' (or something like that) so must have become available again sometime between 1947 and 1950.

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The early 49 had heavier chamfering and looked more elegant IMO.
They’re still not as lovely looking as a pair of Duprat or other slender steel chainsets but those have to be secured by the dreaded and ugly cotterpins.
😝

The bikes here are beautiful if you haven’t seen them.
https://vintagebicycle.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/fit2199.jpg

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Better shot.

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Oh wow that's a great looking site, I'll look forward to giving that some proper attention.

Yes agreed re the earlier chamfered cranks, @falconvitesse kindly has one of each in his set to show the difference :)

I managed to find one of those single rings, 48t 3/32 in reasonable used condition. I'd like a 1/8 and in better condition, but I've found them hard to come by - rare and not easy to pin down with search terms.

I've been meaning to weigh them to see the difference to 49d, but I've got these steel 49a with a TA double to go on a 1948 Hobbs.

Edit: fyi the weighing is just for fun, not because I would turn away these beauties for being too heavy :)

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Also meant to add, the crank to chainring bolts in your pic are the original for 49a/49d of the period. I had some but destroyed a few removing them sob Also seem very hard to come by.

@clubman Please let us know your advice on installation and thanks for the pointers already provided.

Oof loving that blog. Kids off to bed and just lost an hour on it!

These are quite something, can’t remember where I’ve read about them before, but never seen a set. Looks like they’ll go for an eye watering price ...
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Quality-Engineering-Products-Ltd-1950s-Disc-Wheel-Spindle-Nuts-Bicycle/133647524133

Edit: adding some pics for posterity.

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