Pre 1950s rides of LFGSS: old bikes, vintage rats, classic lightweights

Bit short of breath, hoping it was just the wind and is not a bad sign...

Regarding the bike, I was planning to change the chains to a Stronglight 49D (or at a push 49A) with TA ring, and the bars to some GB Maes or similar, in order to lighten the bike up a bit, but unsure. Any opinions anyone?

@jeff80
This bike is finished save the parts for your next lightweight build, it looks smashing.
I guess if you twisted my arm though and i had to change anything it would be the BSA chainset which would have been quite outdated by 1950, however all the parts fit the frame including the scruffy handlebars and tape and make for a very convincing build.

Finally decided to get myself one of these from SJS cycles.
A "Regina/Cyclo freewheel remover" it arrived today and I found the info below in "Sheldon browns" excellent website.
"British Cyclo freewheels were different -- all the sprockets screwed on from the left except the smallest -- and quickest wearing -- one! This sprocket was integral with the freewheel body and could not be removed. Mechanics who didn't know this have broken teeth off this sprocket trying to remove it. But that's ancient history and you will probably never see a British Cyclo freewheel"
Funny but I seem to have two Cyclo freewheels.

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I choose the best freewheel of the two, broke it down, cleaned it up and put it back. I used a wet stone to clean up the edges.
Note in the description from "Sheldonbrown" he says the smallest cog is attached to the main body of the freewheel, however mine has separated.
So It might not be a Cyclo freewheel.

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Back together

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It looks fine - are you waiting for tomorrow's 'daily exercise' to do a road test?

It occurs to me that in view of the interest in these plunger type gears it might be worth asking the old boys who raced using them what they can remember about how they worked when used in anger.

I spoke to Doug Collins earlier this evening who, as a 19 year old, rode the 1956 Tour of Britain using a Benelux (he won the last two stages and finished sixth on GC).

I think, given a couple of days, he may dredge up something interesting from the back of his mind.

There are one or two others I can ask - does this sound an interesting project for our lockdown?

It looks fine but unfortunately it has made no difference at all, the chain is still not engaging with the freewheel properly and to top it off while I was out on a test run earlier the freewheel packed up completely and I had no drive at all.
So I had to walk home albeit not far.
I'm now on the hunt for a freewheel, 5 speed.
I'm going to wait for something decent though as I've been stung before buying second hand freewheels that look great on the outside but totally knackered within.

@clubman it would be great to hear about these bikes being raced back in the day, perhaps a couple of photos too.

Here's a new 5 speed.

https://www.tredz.co.uk/.ETC-5-Speed-Freewheel_27042.htm?sku=119390&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=google_shopping&gclid=Cj0KCQjwjoH0BR

They offer a 14-24 which your mech might be able to cope with. The TdF doesn't really like anything over 22 teeth, but I think your JUY 51, because of its different jockey cage, would probably manage 24.

Nearly all the screw on blocks offered now have at least 28 tooth bottom - which seems to assume the purchasers are are bunch of wimps!

I can't check my own stock atm, but I may well have a spare 14-18. Sadly, I'm unlikely to be able now to cope with an 18 bottom anywhere apart from Regent's Park.

"the freewheel packed up" well, is there any way that a slipping pawl could have cause the problems that you have had ??

I (almost) always remove freewheels using the "destructive" method, as in removing the front plate, taking off the cogs, pawls and balls. Then removing the body using Stilsons and bolts wedged where the pawls would be. The problem is that the 2 tooth block remover, as shown often breaks, or breaks the body, before the threads give. It also gives a good opportunity to clean, examine, rebuild the freewheel mechanism.

From here, the inner plates of that chain look to be too close for the teeth on the block !?

Looking at this pic: https://www.lfgss.com/comments/15166084/

Did you try swinging the derailleur much further forwards to get more chain wrap? As you have it in the pic, the chain isn’t engaging with much of the cog. My feeling is the jockey wheel needs to pull up really close to the cog.

Also, I think you want an older style chain like a plain-sided 5/6 speed chain with no ramps or a 3/32” SS chain.

Bit short of breath, hoping it was just the wind and is not a bad sign...

Regarding the bike, I was planning to change the chains to a Stronglight 49D (or at a push 49A) with TA ring, and the bars to some GB Maes or similar, in order to lighten the bike up a bit, but unsure. Any opinions anyone?

I hope you've got your breath back by now.

Let me guess at your gearing - 48 x 16 (just under 80" on 23mm tubs) If I'm correct that's a gear which would certainly leave me breathless in most places (ok round the London airport perimeter road, I suppose).

As to weight reduction, an easy way to save a few ounces would be to fit a TA ring to your five pin BSA cranks. A slight amount of filing is necessary to open out the chain ring, but this can be done in a few minutes. I believe the BSA design dates from 1904, and the TA from 1948 - I guess TA tried to make their kit compatible, but got slightly muddled with the metric conversion.

I'm a bit worried about the health of your spare tub. I'm sure more tubs have been wrecked by careless packing than by actual use. They should be folded with the tread on the outside of the folds, and must have some kind of wrapping (eg plastic sheet) to protect the tyre from the strap holding it to the saddle. A dust cap on the valve is another useful precaution for the spare.

AH, ok, didn't know that about the tub, will change it this afternoon before my ride. Also, I had though about that TA ring swap. I might have a root around in the loft later to see if I've still got a spare Ta chainring up there.....

Gearing is 46/15, which is just over 80 inches. I know it seems a lot but I usually ride 48/15 on my commute so it ought to be fine. I only really encounter one hill (actually an A13 overpass) on my nasty commute so it's manageable, so the gearing is ok. I'm putting it down to side winds near Wanstead Flats which is where I've been habitually taking my exercise ride-it's very open there so even a slight wind can feel quite strong.

So I've taken out a chain link, which has tightened up the deraileur and allowed for more chain wrap around the freewheel as suggested.
I have also ordered a decent Regina freewheel which should arrive next week.
In the mean time the drive and ride has improved a great deal, thanks @Jonny69

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^ I think that manual sheet is pretty conclusive about the correct chain and jockey wheel positions!

Yep..!

OK, so we know which way up the jockey cage goes, now here's a photo which shows the main difference between the Tour de France (shown here), and the Juy 51 shown above.

I think it's probable that the reason the attachment of the plunger to the jockey cage was moved to the middle of the cage for the Juy 51 was to make it easier to get onto the bottom sprockets. If the cage is slightly further away from the sprockets there's a bit more space.

I note that it is claimed that the Juy 51 can take a 26 t bottom, by an odd coincidence the same as the Campag!

It's worth remembering that a plunger derailleur moves parallel to the wheel spindle, whereas a parallelogram changer moves down as it goes towards the bottom sprocket.

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Just for clarity here, the jockey wheel on the right in the pic above goes at the top.

I'm 1955 they were all available from Holdsworth Cycling Aids.
Campag gran sport 75/
Simplex 543 79/6
Simplex juy51 43/9
Simplex TDF 27/6
Almost twice the price for the Juy51 over the Plain TDF and double again for the 543, they all seem to share the same materials and mechanisms.

It's hard to understand what Simplex thought they were doing.

The Juy 51 does look at least slightly superior to the TdF - for example the TdF jockey cage side plates are rather crudely stamped out, whereas the Juy 51 side plates are nicely bevelled.

My memory may be unreliable here, but I was barely aware of the Juy51 and the only Simplexes I remember seeing in use were TdF's - possibly this just reflects the company I was keeping!

I think the 543 and the Juyrecord60 were pretty much the same thing, as the price implies. As I mentioned above I never saw one in the flesh when they were current. They do appear to have been a better proposition than the earlier mechs - they certainly look more robust - but I think they were hopelessly overpriced against the Campag.

By the time of my first season as a club cyclist (1959) the great majority of riders I came into contact with were Campag equipped - I believe Simplex was already doomed by that point, and they effectively admitted defeat by producing their own parallelogram mech, I think for the 1960 season.

The French, while progressive in many things, can have a streak of stubborn conservatism and I think that played a part here. Another example is Henri Desgrange's refusal to allow any variable gears in 'his' Tour de France.

How did the Benelux Mk7 stack up against them? Looking at the pictures it has the modern chain routing but it looks quite spindly in comparison as everything is long and hangs out a long way.

Well, the Holdsworth's rear wheel blew out a spoke 6 miles from home, the wrong side of the Chilterns, natch. Cue much walking up and down hills as the rim went well taco and had to release the caliper and slack the axle so I could at least push-ride on the flats rather than shoulder it to stop the tyre fucking the chain-stay.
Had a spoke key so ordinarily (ha!) would have done a bit of slacking off to true (false?) things to get home, only to discover most of the nipples were well and truely rounded / seized.
Long (boring) story short, there are lots of pubs (at least four) on the way home, which would have made things less shit if they were open. And I need a new rear wheel, as on inspection, the rim is also past its best.
Fun times.

I feel your pain @richardshill..)

Sorry, I don't know much about the Mk. 7 - although it was probably the mech Doug was using for the 1956 ToB (see above). I'll ask him, but he's not great on details of kit - I think he believed the bike wasn't really his business - his job was to ride it. Quite a common attitude among top class riders.

Be sure to remove the block/sprocket before you cut the spokes!

Ah, good call!