'Space for cycling' protest ride 2nd September

i really don't have the answers.

So listen to someone who who talks a lot of sense and does have some answers like this chap:
http://thecyclingsilk.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/cycle-super-highways-my-personal-views.html

i think hackney is a great place to ride a bike, not trying to dispute that. i think it is a model for the rest of London..... most of these safe roads lack cars......but Mare street is not all great, or safe. Why not use the park?

I am a confident and happy cyclist thanks. I have concern for those who are not. besides all the training will never prepare you for a reckless driver....

If we had a safe infrastructure, training and helmets would be a thing of the past.....

I don't get why you think cyclists should be absolved of all of their responsibilities when using the roads. Why is this?

I'm really fed up of every time this topic comes up there is little discussion of cycle training in the media. Based on what I see EVERYDAY on London's roads I'm surprised there aren't more accidents and a lot of it is due to cyclist inexperience and an overall lack of common sense. I'm not victim blaming.There are poor drivers for sure but there are many suicidal riders that make moves based on ignorance. Damn right, the current system of magical pigment isn't sufficient. But the idea that in the next 6 months or even six years that there will be high grade separation as well as prioritisation at inevitable shared junctions (e.g. north side of Blackfriars Bridge going north) is wishful at best. We can get ourselves as good as we can be- thinking and being more aware of what is going on around us right now for free.

At the first mention of free cycle education, people's ego rise and the default responses comes out: "I'm fine." "I've been doing it for years." "I don't need it." "I'm confident."

I worked as a messenger and have no issues staying alive on the roads 10hrs/day, everyday, however, after doing the course my mindset changed over night. If you want a quick improvement on roads then make an effort to push the availability of this service. You'll get a much quicker improvement doing this than waiting for wholesale segregation.

All the talk of cycle training supposes that a safe journey is always down to the skills of the rider, without taking into account fuckwit actions of oblivious drivers. It's all very well for the more experienced riders to have their training, but unless it's built into the National Curriculum, you're not gonna get an overnight population of competent cyclists.

At least give the novices somewhere safer to learn their skillz.

But there is so much 'monkey see, monkey do' that better riders means novices will pick up better practise passively. How many times have you seen a mass waiting at lights, then a lone wolf streams through the red , then several from the waiting mass decide that waiting is no longer the best option and they too wobble through? Then think of all the typical dick moves that are imitated and start multiplying....We lost a generation to cycling but are working to reeducate Yr5s and Yr6s, why not make the push to get it on the curriculum? Many cyclists have said how beneficial it would be to get some form of cycling as part of obtaining a driving license; this would be two birds and one stone.

"Relatively" safe is not really safe enough if you loose a friend or family member.

Your family member is more likely to die from the ill effects of poor health from not cycling. Are you whinging about their poor diet, demanding safe eating, forcing them to exercise?

@MG agree with a lot of what our saying. cycle training and being aware of the roads/cars is a good thing. it should be part of the curriculum. maybe one day the type of training needed will change as infra is improved.....

@DJ i am vegan, i eat well and think others should also....but, free will and all that...not sure i really see your point.... anyway.....

Having lost a friend on Holloway road to a careless diver, cycle death is quite real in my world. It has not stopped me cycling and I promote bikes with every fiber of my body(as i'm sure you do also). its a shame one of my buddies is no longer with me. he was a very sensible and safe rider. a car door was opened and knocked him into the path of a bus. i believe if he had a separate bike path(Holloway road and pavement is huge, could easily accommodate a bike lane) this would not have happened.

you are going to have your view, i'm going to have mine.

Have you had any direct experience of cycle training?

Have you had any direct experience of cycle training?

I can understand the merits of learning road safety, it is a wise thing to do, but no amount of cycling training will stop a careless motorist behind the wheel

@MG agree with a lot of what our saying. cycle training and being aware of the roads/cars is a good thing. it should be part of the curriculum. maybe one day the type of training needed will change as infra is improved......

dude, i have said many time, i think its valued, but better road planning space for cyclists on london roads is needed.... i'm over this.....last time i will ever post about LCC protest rides.......i'm off to look at some anti-porn or something.

safe cycling.

so would i be right in concluding you have not had cycle training?

are you aware of the bikeability recommendations about how close cyclists should ride to car doors?

so would i be right in concluding you have not had cycle training?

are you aware of the bikeability recommendations about how close cyclists should ride to car doors?

Once again, I'm not sure of your point....or why my personal bike experience factors into this discussion about London bike infrastructure........

Are you saying my dead friend would still be alive if he had gone on bikeability ?!???

Im done, over and out.

Are you saying my dead friend would still be alive if he had gone on bikeability ?!???

Bear in mind that the collision caused by other are avoidable which is what Bikeability teach, no one is putting the blame on your (and my) friend whose live were sadly cut short by other's inability to work with other road user.

Bikeability is likely to make a bigger difference than a cycle path/lane which does nothing to teach cyclists on how to work with other road users, beside reinforced the notion that bicyclists are second class road users.

Bikeability is likely to make a bigger difference than a cycle path/lane which does nothing to teach cyclists on how to work with other road users, beside reinforced the notion that bicyclists are second class road users.

Really?! So in Denmark and the Netherlands, where cycle paths/lanes are second to none, do you think that cyclists are considered "second class road users"?

Yes, especially in Denmark, you have to hug the kerbs when you're riding on a road without cycle path, even if there's a car parked.

Riding primary in Copenhagen does not work if you don't want to get hassled by other road users (or in my case, an angry bus driver).

Yes, especially in Denmark, you have to hug the kerbs when you're riding on a road without cycle path, even if there's a car parked.

Riding primary in Copenhagen does not work if you don't want to get hassled by other road users (or in my case, an angry bus driver).

Fair enough, I can't speak from personal experience of those places, only what I've heard. On the other hand, you still get hassled by drivers here, but you don't have a network of cycle-friendly infrastructure to fall back on.

Fair enough, I can't speak from personal experience of those places, only what I've heard.

It is amazing how many people refer to these cycling utopias who have no experience of them.

Segregated cycle lanes frequently make cycles a 2nd class of transport. If you are on a segregated cycle lane running parallel to a main road, the path cedes priority to every side road. This makes it a continuous stop-start journey. In quite a few countries with a strong infrastructure it is compulsory to use the lanes where they are provided. This is probably not such a problem where you are doing short commutes (eg Holland with its much smaller cities and towns). If you are riding longer distances and going faster the continual stop start is going to be a much greater inconvenience.

To make the Dutch model work we would need to raise our cities to the ground, split them into smaller towns with a very different layout, and also add strict liability to UK road law.

Fair enough, I can't speak from personal experience of those places, only what I've heard. On the other hand, you still get hassled by drivers here, but you don't have a network of cycle-friendly infrastructure to fall back on.

That's the thing, you get hassled less here when you take primary, out of says, 50 cars that have overtook you, 2-4 is likely to be inconsiderated, so despite how much we moan about bad driving, we do have decent drivers in the UK.

I used to visit Copenhagen 3-10 days a months for a year and own a bicycle there (much easier and they're cheap).

At first appearance, it's an utopia, severe lack of motorised vehicles compared to London, lots of cyclists, massive road and almost equally massive cycle path (at least 2 metres from appearance, enough for three bike in a row).

But the more I rode, the more I realised it's merely an illusion, right-hook is still commonplace and they also have risk of HGV, abet less due to less HGV on the road compare to London.

Everyone cycle without cares, they never look behind, they ride very closed to the kerbs, they never look left and right when they cross junction, etc. I'm fairly confident to says that the London cyclists are slightly more aware than their Copenhagen equative.

Lastly, they're second class road user, one example is crossing from a major to a minor (turning left), you can't just jump on the road, wait on the middle and turn left, this is an illegal manoverve*, you have to stay on the cycle path until you reach the other end (green box with a bike and arrow) and wait with the other traffic for the light change so you can cross the road, as illustrated in the diagram below;

This is generally the main reason why it's likely to get hassled by drivers in Copenhagen - it was unexpected for cyclists to be on the road where there's a cycle path next to it, let alone riding primary (even on road without cycle path).

Oh yeah, congestion does exist, have to wait quite a while in a traffic light in July due to the sheer numbers of cyclists despite a clear and almost empty road next to it.

*I was stopped by the police and played the foreign card for not realising it's illegal to ride on the road if there's a cycle path.

This is probably not such a problem where you are doing short commutes (eg Holland with its much smaller cities and towns).

lots of people commute fair distances between towns in Holland... bike or bike/train.

It is amazing how many people refer to these cycling utopias who have no experience of them.

I really don't like to get drawn into these kind of discussions/arguments, but as someone who does have experience of cycling in Holland, I can very confidently say I would happily let my child cycle to school in Holland, whereas I can't imagine a point where I'd ever let her do that in the UK, no matter how much training she had. While drivers may not love cyclists in those countries, there is nothing like the level of anger and impatience towards cyclists that many UK drivers have.

In the end I'd be happy to sacrifice my freedom to charge around town at high speed if it meant that a greater proportion of the population could use bikes just to get around, even if that means they're slow and chaotic.

I do agree that most of our roads aren't suited to having segregated cycle lanes.

Personally I think European style liability laws would do far more good than anything else, but you only have to look at any online discussion of those to see we're never going to get them. This country's problem seems to be more to do with our contempt for anyone more vulnerable than ourselves and I can't see that changing.

In the end I'd be happy to sacrifice my freedom to charge around town at high speed if it meant that a greater proportion of the population could use bikes just to get around, even if that means they're slow and chaotic.

^this. It's a point that quite often gets lost in the debate but people who argue against segregation are often those who already cycle on the road, who are happy enough (and I stress "enough") with the way things are to be cycling now. On forums like this, there is the slight undertone that people don't want bike paths because they don't want to be prevented from caning it round town playing brakeless car-slalom. Well, tough shit. The road isn't your private velodrome any more than it's Jeremy Clarkson's private racetrack. Putting in bike lanes not only makes cycling feasible for the old/young/slow/fat/lazy but also makes towns cleaner, quieter, safer and just generally nicer for all the time that you're not on a bike, which is most of the time.

Holy strawman...

http://ibikelondon.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/londons-first-truly-super-cycle-highway.html

^this. It's a point that quite often gets lost in the debate but people who argue against segregation are often those who already cycle on the road, who are happy enough (and I stress "enough") with the way things are to be cycling now. On forums like this, there is the slight undertone that people don't want bike paths because they don't want to be prevented from caning it round town playing brakeless car-slalom. Well, tough shit. The road isn't your private velodrome any more than it's Jeremy Clarkson's private racetrack. Putting in bike lanes not only makes cycling feasible for the old/young/slow/fat/lazy but also makes towns cleaner, quieter, safer and just generally nicer for all the time that you're not on a bike, which is most of the time.

Assumption much?

i'm over this.....last time i will ever post about LCC protest rides

Once again, Im done, over and out.

http://ibikelondon.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/londons-first-truly-super-cycle-highway.html

doing well at this not posting malarkey

It is amazing how many people refer to these cycling utopias who have no experience of them.

have you had personal experience cycling outside of the UK James? Berlin? Holland? what cycling cities have you visited and for how long? did you ride a bike in these places?

Needlessly agressive cycle campaigners are probably more offputting to newbie cyclists than London traffic. Whatever their opinion.

i know. resolve of soap.