The 20mph campaign/s and arguments...

20mph throughout London's a bit mental though, surely it'd just lead to more frustration and anger from drivers because they'd be going at a snails pace.

How? the average speed in central London is 7mph, whether for push bike is 14mph, they're already riding at snails pace.

Jamaica Road in Southwark have an average speed of 0.08mph during rush hour, the lowest in the UK.

The difference is that they'll less likely to accelerate rapidly between each traffic light hoping to get to the next one before it turn red, whether a 20mph limit mean that by the time the drivers approach the next traffic light, it'll more likely to turn green (as it does on a push bike).

The other factor is that it'll less likely to become congested when the drivers managed to keep up with their other ahead of them whom got caught in traffic, had they take it easy, there's less traffic jam between each light, something I have notice when I commute from work at 12am in London, after 15 minutes of no cars, suddenly I see 10-15 of them at once going ahead driving at the speed limit that get bigger at each traffic light.

Oh and a lots quieter, it's amazing how much noise pollution vehicles give out at 30mph in comparison.

we just run DFP over at 40mph and then at 20mph. He can make up his own mind
and it saves everybody a lot of typing.

You have clearly come to the view that 30 or 40 is acceptable.

Not 40. The campaign seems to be focused around changing 30 zones to 20.

I would easily agree that there are plenty of 40 zones which could do with being taken down to 30. But the 30's down to 20, especially with the broad scope the 'campaign' is pushing for seems excessive and illogical.

I have turned this into an debate where I am saying I am totally against it, arguing with everyone. Did not want it to turn out that way btw. Just trying to defend my existing opinion, am eager to hear more on this. Justifications and case studies. But the stuff coming from people 'inside' these campaigns does all seem like lunacy. So external sources are appreciated.

To do it Scientifically we should hit him with smaller forms of transport at different speeds too, maybe start with shoes, then skateboards, a BMX, a moped, working our way up through different sized cars and trucks until we have a better idea of the answers.

The greatest benefit IMHO of the 20mph limit is that it'll encourage every Tom, Dick, and Harry to ride their bicycle due to the road looking less intimating, which is usually a major factor to why many people don't ride their bicycles.

And Scientology too, but that's another story for another time.

But everyone will be breaking the speed limit as soon as they roll down a slight hill. Not exactly fair for bikes to be given leeway with the "law" and cars not?

Part of it will also be to do with the fact that a lot of twats break the speed limit somewhat anyway, doing 35ish in a 30 zone and 25ish in a 20. Also bikes don't kill very much when they hit you, but we could test this if you're willing.

And why? why do you automatically assumed they will be breaking the speed limit all the time?

Is it very common for people to break the 30mph limit currently? this is more due to the road infrastructure than simply disobeying the speed limit, a perfect example is Clapham Common South Side where drivers tend to break the speed limit, even if there's speed camera on it.

CCSS is quite a wide road, the Northbound section especially where drivers feel very comfortable to go faster than 30mph, very disconcerting for the cyclists and there's a lots of collision occurred there (including me, twice).

Snotty is also right, it's a lots less damaging when a driver break the 20mph limit than breaking the 30mph limit.

Different vehicles are already treated differently by the law, trucks and busses have different speed limits on motorways and national speed limit zones, the ones signed are for cars as there is a fuckload more of them.

How? the average speed in central London is 7mph, whether for push bike is 14mph, they're already riding at snails pace.

Jamaica Road in Southwark have an average speed of 0.08mph during rush hour, the lowest in the UK.

Didn't know that, sorry. There's a lot less traffic in the city centre over here because HGVs and trucks have their own routes to the ports and have certain time frames for deliveries. Dedicated bus lanes too.

In London, those vehicles get mixed with normal traffic, CS7 (Cycle Superhighway 7) is also on a truck road as well as the main route for commuter on buses, private vehicles, push cycles etc. you can imaging the chaos ensure.

Nothing to apologise for Tyrrell, it's a discussion after all.

looks like the thread finally became sensible, I am learning things.

Different vehicles are already treated differently by the law, trucks and busses have different speed limits on motorways and national speed limit zones, the ones signed are for cars as there is a fuckload more of them.

This is an important factor, HGV for example, have a longer braking distance than a says, saloon cars at the same speed.

Found this handy chart showing the stopping distance of each speed (including the thinking time).

Cyclists are not subjected to the speed limit.

Is this true?

Scoble said it.

Is this true?

Yes, they can only fine you for* "wanton or furious cycling"*.

Speed limits are for motor vehicles I think, although you can be done for riding like a nob.

Depends on your definition of brainwashed. Large collectives of people and very strongly believe that certain things are absolutely true, be very emotional about it and take very bold actions based upon these beliefs.

Whether this is a suicide pact in a "real brainwashed cult" , bizarre diets in a health fad or poor choices in public policy.

The character of 20limit people I have observed, seems very delusional and cult like. They have all accepted a belief which consumes their being inside their community and are blind to the things outside.

My mind is open, keen to hear about the work of people like Hefty's mate.

Did you consider that they may have come to reasonable decisions after looking at the evidence? There's a lesson there....

A435, the bit which is "Kings Heath High St). It is not necessarily being done, but "liveinhope" are pushing hard for it. There are not even any schools on that part, just shops and a lot of bus stops.

There are cul de sacs with entrances to schools on it, and please remember the A435 is tremendously slow anyway due to all the traffic delivering to shops, going to shops, going to schools and work. I doubt anyone goes over 20mph anyway. The council has been trying to fix the problem for at least 25 years, but local residents have voted down plans to build a bypass, widen the road, or even make it a red route. But kids keep getting run over there.

The issue that occurs to me is that what the legislation/campaign is setting out to do it to reduce top speeds to 20mph, which we'll accept as being groovy.

My question is how is this going to be done?

Average speed camera's won't work as the average speed is 7mph in the existing 30mph zones already, and fixed speed camera's will have the same reaction as all others do today- traffic applies the brakes coming up to the camera, then speeds up afterward.

So my concern is that a lot of political capital gets burned to bring in 20mph limits which are then unenforced, but become another stick to beat cyclists with- "you got your 20 mph limit, and you don't even pay road tax/blah blah blah".

I think that some of the ideas behind the reduced limit are very sound, but I don't think that it'll make any positive difference.

Cyclists are not subjected to the speed limit.

Yet.

Don't assume that they never will.
After all, if you are prepared to make an entire city 20mph then why, when you notice all the bikes moving faster than that, would you not also attempt to slow the bikes down?

When I ride a motorcycle I am not stuck in the queues of cars and am therefore perfectly capable of doing 30mph in all these congested streets for almost all of my commute. On longer journeys, therefore 20mph limits therefore could slow my progress down considerably.

In Norway the limit is 30kph in built up areas. I fully agree with this. Roads with kids playing etc. are not the place to make up time on your journey.

I dont know about the UK (havent been driving long). But penalties are set out related to % over the limit. Its fecking easy to lose your license, or even end up in prison.

I was caught doing 65kph in a 50kph zone. Got a £100 fine. If I'd been caught doing the same 15kph over a 30kph limit. I'd have lost my license instantly, no question. There are 40kph zones which go through town, but are separated from paths etc. Its bloody easy to hit 80kph. Especially if the road is wide. Thats you in court, pleading not to get sent down if you get caught though.

In this way. The more important lower limits are more harshly enforced.

@BlueQuinn - That's true, but then you could just leave a little earlier. 1 minute per mile isn't going to make your life unbearable, is it, within the scope of urban commuting distances?

That's not really an argument, though. Whatever time I leave I would still be riding slower, for longer (and possibly therefore emitting more pollution, not less? I don't know.)

Would it make life unbearable? No, but it would make it less enjoyable.

As an aside, most bikes I have had have also been rubbish at 20. It's in between gears at that speed, so you're either revving too highly in 2nd or spluttering in 3rd, and swapping between them a lot. I've found the same with manual cars that I have driven, so I think that the claim of fewer gearchanges is probably wrong.

Get a bike with appropriate gearing for town use?

That's not very environmentally minded James.