The 20mph campaign/s and arguments...

Thank you both.

Having perused the road.cc article I'll slink back off to my corner - nothing seems very clear beyond the fact that the whole situation's a badly drafted fuckup.

Bit of a dredge, but why do you reckon it's not? I was dull enough to look at the Royal Parks and Other Open Spaces Regulations, and as amended in 2010 they say

I thought it was fairly settled law that 'vehicle' includes bicycles, while 'motor vehicle' fairly obviously excludes them.
Nowhere is a bicycle defined as a vehicle for the purposes of the relevant Acts, other than in the RTA. The RTA is not applicable to RPR

Acts in a Park for which written permission is required
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1997/1639/regulation/4/made

(28) drive or ride any vehicle on a Park road in excess of the speed specified in relation to that road in Part II of Schedule 2 to these Regulations;

SCHEDULE 2
THE DRIVING AND RIDING OF VEHICLES ON A PARK ROAD
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1997/1639/schedule/2/made

PART II
Speeds at which vehicles may be driven or ridden on a Park road

1. On the Park roads in Bushy Park, Greenwich Park, Hyde Park (except for the Serpentine Road), The Regent’s Park, Richmond Park and St. James’s and The Green Parks, at a speed not exceeding 30 m.p.h.
   (As amended to 20mph)
   
   

Given that vehicle is defined in:

The Royal Parks and Other Open Spaces (Amendment) etc. Regulations 2010
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2010/9780111492086?view=plain

““vehicle” means a mechanically propelled vehicle intended or adapted for use on a road.”

for the purposes of the RPR “vehicle” isn’t defined (and the definition in the 2010 Amendment Regulations, on its terms, doesn’t apply to the RPR).

It would be possible to argue from the scheme of the RPR that a bicycle isn’t intended to be a vehicle – the two are treated separately in many provisions, and the definition in the 2010 Amendment Regulations, even if it doesn’t apply directly, is at least relevant to the context. But against that you’ve got the point that in the Road Traffic Acts, “vehicle” does include bicycles; and this is surely relevant (given the context) too.

Another challenge to an RP speeding ticket would be that the equipment used is not tested and rated for use in detecting speeds of cyclists.

"Officer, I will accept this as soon as you provide me with the certificate of calibration for a diamond-pattern road frame with two (2) wheels"

So, 20mph being enforced:

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/islington-to-start-giving-fines-to-drivers-who-breach-the-20mph-speed-limit-9778775.html

It's a beginning, let's hope it's successful.

“If it’s really busy you can’t go faster than that anyway, but if the road is empty and you’re going along at 20mph it’s a waste of time. They should trust us to have common sense.”

Lulz

20mph is stupid, the only people who will actually benefit from this is the ones handing out the fines.

^

Lulz

the stupid, it burns

what causes the majority of accidents? speeding

the likelihood of a KSI (killed or serious injury) changes hugely from 20mph to 30 mph

You mean Islington Taxpayers will benefit...
...both from the fines and the many benefits of lower of speeds in the Borough
win win

Anecdotal evidence from staring out of my window (I live in a 20mph area in SW15) is that ~80% of people respect the 20mph limit, which is about what is expected for speed limits generally.

...and of course there is the beacon borough, Hackney. where speeds are low and cycling is high

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/first-fines-as-islington-cracks-down-on-drivers-doing-more-than-20mph-9783570.html

If only there was a thread somewhere that disavowed this entirely spurious notion.

Earlier this month, New York City lowered its citywide speed limit from 30 miles per hour to 25.

Partly using the success of 20mph restrictions in London's Famous London as supporting evidence for its benefits: http://www.vox.com/2014/11/18/7240953/speed-limit-new-york

Good work, Merkins! Now if we can just get London's Famous London to pay attention to what's happening in London's Famous London then we'll all be golden.

Been driving a lot more recently, going south to north through London to get to Stevenage and boy is 20 horrible. It is only on a couple of sections of my route but if/when it expands it will make me sad.

I understand the safety aspects of it and not proposing any other solutions but I (very selfishly) do not like the impact it will have on my car journeys.

Good work, Merkins!

The sad thing is, quite a lots of states in America done far more than the whole of the UK when it come to cycling, especially their 3 feets law.

To make your journey more enjoyable, just think about the goodness your 20 miles and hour is doing for the community you drive through

1 minute per mile, assuming you currently do not have to slow down in any 30mph sections

Anecdotal evidence from staring out of my window (I live in a 20mph area in SW15) is that ~80% of people respect the 20mph limit,

You obviously have much nicer people down there than in the City and Camden. I set my limiter at 23mph which is a true 20mph according to the GPS, and I'm always the slowest vehicle on the road when there is no congestion to slow everybody else down. I also routinely get overtaken in the 20mph residential streets in W3 by wankers who then slam on the brakes to 10mph right in front of me when they see the size of the speed hump they are approaching.

This^ in spades. I constantly get tailgated, hooted and eratically passed when driving around the limit in 20 zones. I find it tiring and upsetting.

Depends on your definition of brainwashed. Large collectives of people and very strongly believe that certain things are absolutely true, be very emotional about it and take very bold actions based upon these beliefs.

Whether this is a suicide pact in a "real brainwashed cult" , bizarre diets in a health fad or poor choices in public policy.

The character of 20limit people I have observed, seems very delusional and cult like. They have all accepted a belief which consumes their being inside their community and are blind to the things outside.

My mind is open, keen to hear about the work of people like Hefty's mate.

Are you sure this wasn't in Anfield?

The sad thing is, quite a lots of states in America done far more than the whole of the UK when it come to cycling, especially their 3 feets law.>

Shudder to think where that third foot goes....

I understand the safety aspects of it and not proposing any other solutions but I (very selfishly) do not like the impact it will have on my car journeys.

Decent bypasses would be one option, though somewhat difficult to affect through London... but also needless to affect through London when we already have the North and South Circulars. Ok, the South Circular is a bit shit compared to the North, but I think most 20mph zones are to be found in the North anyway, so it's those that people would most want to avoid.

I understand the safety aspects of it and not proposing any other solutions but I (very selfishly) do not like the impact it will have on my car journeys.

Maybe you understand the safety aspect, but you clearly don't understand the effect it has on your journey times. Next time you're driving, take your Garmin and create a track log. Modify the track log when you get home such that every time you accelerate to 20mph, the new log says you get to 30. You will find that you get to the next queue for traffic lights about 2-3s sooner, so you're stationary for that much longer. On the one or two occasions when you are first in the queue and would have passed straight through if you had got there 2-3s sooner, deduct that stationary time from your journey. This method will give an approximation which favours your bias, since in most cases eliminating those unnecessary stops just gets you to the next queue sooner :-)

I spend several hours every day driving in the City, and I'd be very surprised if the 20mph zone was costing me more than 15 minutes a week, and the true figure might be much closer to zero.