2013 Herne Hill Track League (sponsored by Cycling Weekly)

FWIW I don't think c's were promoting themselves. The race was billed as B+C scratch race, but obviously all the A's who hadn't made it through the derny heats were in there sandbagging too.
I know it's a struggle to run a good programme of events for everyone, but really that was poor planning - especially since most people had been sitting about for the previous hour and were either chomping at the bit, or tired and not well warmed up.

It was not poor planning, it was poor riding that caused the crash, and I don't think it was particularly riders from the C's either who caused the crash. That is an easy cop out to make. The first riders to go down were about two to three bike lengths from the front and we were around 4-5 riders wide across the track when crash happened going at not much more than warm up pace.

It was riders dicking about that caused the crash, simple. Please don't make excuses for bad riding and certainly do not blame the organisers.

Ok - point taken. The riders caused the crash. I still maintain that a big group of a, b and c riders is a bad mix at the end of the night.

I'm certainly not blaming the c's - especially since I am one! The pace was fine for me - but the choppy pace and lack of room were making a lot of people nervous.

Don't think the C's were the culprit's. From my vantage point I could see riders swing off the front in the most exaggerated fashion through the first few laps, and coupled with the change in pace it made me very uneasy. I have ridden track for a long time and am very comfortable in the bunch. But this race was buillding up in intensity as the laps went on and it felt like something would give.

To clarify: What I meant was that the crash happened for whatever reason (I was at the back so there's no way I could know) but the number of inexperienced riders and the number of riders on the track meant it was worse than it could have been.

Anyway. At least no-one was too badly hurt. Crashes are just part if racing I suppose.

The derny races were incredible to watch last night.

Don't think the C's were the culprit's. From my vantage point I could see ** riders swing off the front in the most exaggerated fashion through the first few laps,** and coupled with the change in pace it made me very uneasy. I have ridden track for a long time and am very comfortable in the bunch. But this race was buillding up in intensity as the laps went on and it felt like something would give.

And from which club were these riders swinging up in an exaggerated fashion? The pace went up a bit when Alan Strang took to the front.

What do people think that the max number of riders should be on the track? 10? 100? 1,000? There must be a number which is too many. I get the feeling that was the case last night and in the other crash a few months ago.
However, what I've been hearing from riders more experienced than me have been saying the same things as Colin.

Just had a couple of x-rays done and I'm in the clear! No Geraint Thomas chip of the pelvis for me. All that cheese eating may give me a heart attack soon, but it seems to be keeping my bones intact.

Heal up everyone!

Seems like it was similar circumstances to the last big crash, which I am still off the bike from almost 3 months down the line. It seems like these big bunch races with different cats don't work that well as many of the riders don't have the experience to cope with sudden changes in pace, etc, etc. How can you blame the rider when they are never pulled up for bad habits or may not realise they are riding badly?

With such an influx of new riders it may mean that the whole approach to racing needs to change to accommodate this. In the past newbies would only be a small percentage and it would be the regular experienced riders who would make up the majority of the racing field - so if one or two riders were acting like plonkers it was easy to spot and also avoid.

Crashing is part of racing and I accept this, but e are not pros and we all have to go to work or school the next day. It is a hobby we do for fun so it is important to try and make it as safe and enjoyable as possible.

Riders swinging of the front "in an exaggerated fashion" or otherwise really shouldn't be a problem as it should be anticipated by the riders behind. If you're not ready for that in a race situation then you should probably go back to Monday night sessions to get some more track craft. If it's happening in the middle of the bunch that's an entirely different matter.

I've heard it (second hand admittedly) that the rider 4th in line was overlapping wheels on the inside, attempted to move up and inevitably clipped the wheel in front. So it would appear, if true, that the crash was caused by the sort of beginners error that riders just shouldn't be making at racing level.

What do people think that the max number of riders should be on the track? 10? 100? 1,000? There must be a number which is too many. I get the feeling that was the case last night and in the other crash a few months ago.
However, what I've been hearing from riders more experienced than me have been saying the same things as Colin.

Just had a couple of x-rays done and I'm in the clear! No Geraint Thomas chip of the pelvis for me. All that cheese eating may give me a heart attack soon, but it seems to be keeping my bones intact.

And keeping some meat on your butt :)

Glad you're ok dude, that would have been terrible luck after the ribs.

Also I don't think there's a problem with the size of the fields. When the Cs race on their own they don't seem to have any problems, but when they're all trying to compete with the faster riders in the mixed races it seems to get very sketchy indeed. Too many riders on the rivet in the middle of the bunch with their heads down.

C cats need to be completely separate IMO.

^ this. Too many people worried about keeping up rather than looking up.

It seems the number of riders in the bunch who are not following simple track etiquette is growing and growing, which in turn is going to lead to more crashes. Surely it is the level of skill in the bunch that needs to be addressed which is tough when all you need to do is spend £70 on a BC license and rock up and race. It's not just on the track, the same is happening on the road.

^ this. Too many people worried about keeping up rather than looking up.

Quote to live by!

I think it would be useful to set up a separate thread where positive ideas that could improve safety can be suggested and discussed. HHV has a safety committee that ideas and feedback can be submitted to.

It was riders dicking about that caused the crash, simple. Please don't make excuses for bad riding and certainly do not blame the organisers.

I don't agree. I am A/B rider down at track league most weeks and I was within the front 6-7 riders in the race as I did not qualify for derny races. The crash happened way behind me - about 10 riders back and the first man to go down was a chap who I had previously earmarked as a rider out of his depth at the Monday advanced sessions I had first seen him in. He is a rider who was bound to cause crashes and he had little-no experience racing. Him causing the crash was simply his lack of race experience and skittishness.

The guy who went down first was identified as being the cause of the crash by other people who were involved in the aftermath including a friend of man who was on the wheel of the guy and had his skin-suit wrecked and bad roadrash. He and others told me that the rider in question had failed to react to a slow in pace of the bunch quick enough and having initially tried to go under the wheel of the rider in front realised he was still going too fast. He then tried to change lines and go above the rider he'd previously gone under hitting his wheel and going down. I talked to rider who's wheel he hit and he can vouch for this also.

The only issue here is that there has been an influx of people with little experience riding and racing in bunch situations at speed. People do a couple Saturday sessions and think they're racers....

My point is that nobody was dicking about and the race wasn't even at race-pace yet. There were about 4-5 laps to go. I don't believe however that Cs should be mixed with As and Bs though. Some of these kids were spinning out within the 1st lap....

EDIT: 'From my vantage point I could see riders swing off the front in the most exaggerated fashion through the first few laps'

I cannot see how this has any relevance? The crash was not caused by this at all.

Anyway, as long as the rider is swinging up from the front and not within the middle of the pack this is standard race technique. If a rider cannot handle another rider swinging up and coming down immediately to fight to get on the wheel of a rider in a strung out line at race pace then he or she should re-consider racing. It happens all the time in A B and C races and never cause crashes. Pretty much every crash I've seen on the track this season in these cats has been to do with nervousness within the bunch (usually at quite a slow pace).

It's not just on the track, the same is happening on the road.

Someone else said this last night. Racing at Hillingdon, Crystal Palace etc seems to be carnage at the moment.

We need to start making our sport unpopular again :D

Set up a thread for discussing safety ideas here:

http://www.lfgss.com/thread113324.html#post3811447

The perfect storm. Mix of cats, big field, riders struggling to adjust to the lights being on, half the field treating the race as an chance to muck about and chat to their mates while the other half tried to get round /through them.

Too Many Man - BOY BETTER KNOW - YouTube

Can't say I've noticed too much mucking about tbh, at least not to an extent that it's causing a danger to other riders.

They were. I know because I was yelling at the riders at the front to stop dicking about and get on with racing.

Nobody was dicking about, I was on the front off the bloody race myself..

Did you report anyone to the comms Colin? If not, why not?