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I for one will mourn her passing, not so much for her politics, though i think a lot of what she did had to be done, just not in the way she did it. It's interesting to see the reaction on here being so one sided, and I am not going to get into all that as that's just a personal opinion based on whether you benefited or where punished by her policies, but to me she represented the last generation of the great politicians who really beloved in something and had the balls to do it.
In this day and age where all we have are a bunch of jumped up SPAD's leading our parties, hers was a time when politicians had convictions one way or another, and passionately fought for them, rather than the current bunch who are more interested in polls and media image than forging ahead with any real social change.
Hate her all you want, but I would rather have the likes of her involved in politics than the wet fish we have now.
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Celebrating Thatcher's death is like an extreme case of shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.
As a head of government she was an abject failure. The job of any government is to bring the polis closer to justice. She did the exact opposite. This was partly due to her extreme ignorance, but also to her weakness. Those who claim that she was 'strong' or 'power-crazy', like many in this thread and elsewhere, fail to see that for much of her premiership she merely gave away power to a coterie of barons, like Rupert Murdoch. It's very easy to be acclaimed as 'strong' like that by those who hold the real power.
The real reason why politics seems so bleak and hopeless today, and has caused so much apathy, was because the reach of the state, which should be the promoter of justice, has so much diminished. I'm certainly not saying that many states or governments have been reliable promoters of justice, but this is where that power should be vested if any states should exist.
'Breaking' the unions is often cited as a key example of her 'strength', but it's much easier to defeat a rabble than a well-defended vested interest, and so she chose the path of least resistance. The problem with the unions was not rooted in their alleged excessive power but in the hostile relationship that they had with the state. That relationship should normally be one of constructive collaboration and a key check on the government's and industry's power, and welcomed by both. The reasons why the relationship was historically so poor are of course not of Thatcher's making, but she utterly failed to broker the situation.
The real reason why she created the illusion of strength is because her rule was reminiscent of that of English monarchs, whose power, following the Magna Carta, was diminished compared to other European kings, having been handed over to the barons. With very few exceptions, monarchs acted for the most part like figureheads and deflected attention away from the de facto, as opposed to de iure (always a difficult concept with the shape of the 'law' in Britain being what it is) form of government, which was not monarchy but aristocracy for most of its post-Conquest history.
As for the rest of her policies, they have for the most part already been shown up as having unbalanced world politics, her economic policies in particular.
She created today's housing crisis. She created the banking crisis. And she created the benefits crisis. It was her government that started putting people on incapacity benefit rather than register them as unemployed because the Britain she inherited was broadly full employment. She decided when she wrote off our manufacturing industry that she could live with two or three million unemployed, and the benefits bill, the legacy of that, we are struggling with today. In actual fact, every real problem we face today is the legacy of the fact that she was fundamentally wrong.
It was of course not just her but her axis with other incompetent and weak leaders like Helmut Kohl or Ronald Reagan that caused the damage.
Rest in peace nonetheless. There's no need for hell or any nonsense like that. She has had ample punishment already in the revulsion in which she is held by so many. We have to move on and continue to try and repair some of the damage she caused, much as it now more of an uphill struggle than ever before.
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We have to move on and continue to try and repair some of the damage she caused
"continue" would suggest some progress already. Sorry, but employment and standards of living for the less well off are exactly the same as when I left school (ie. fucking bleak) there has been no progress. Successive governments (of which a significant portion were labour) have made no attempt to put right any of the things that people vilify Thatcher for. That's as despicable as Thatcher at her worst.
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and a lot of women voted for her as a woman rather than for her politics.
Those women were stupid then, given how she demonised single and/or unmarried woman and clearly stated how much she hated feminism and feminists
Nah, she was a cunt, glad she's dead, can't wait to piss on her grave
I would, but being a girl, my aim is often off.
Who's up for reenacting the poll tax riots at her funeral?
Mr Poots has made me promise not to get involved with anything even remotely involving funeral disruption :(
erm - celebrating someone's death is not the same thing as killing them. HTH.
Again, rep.
Oh guys, falling out amongst yourselves. You are truly the children of Thatcher... that is how the right works - the privatisation of public assets, the promotion of the car over public transport, the stratification of society based on ability to pay. It is about me, there is no "us" - divide and conquer.
Stick together brothers, comrades.
Sometimes I really <3 this forum. The above is a fine, fine example of it.
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To those about to post that they participated at the Poll Tax riots, or at a Miner's demo/riot, or even at the Timex strike/riot in Dundee... you should remember that this is a public internet site and that the internet never forgets.
Some things, are just best said where it's not going to be permanently archived and associated to you.
David, with respect, If I get done 20+ years later for being a stupid student crim at the Poll Tax Riots I'll pay double and give half to you and the forum for server fees.
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So that bit when she destroyed the unions, and with it collective bargaining power with our employers, when she sold off most of our social housing,
The unions, unfortunately, were in ruins before she became PM. Her election came in part because of the unions.
Socal housing? It was a utter mess.. loads of loads of large empty flats in total disorganized, poorly managed and crime ridden council housing estates.
When the "Sex Pistols" sang "No Future" it stuck a cord because that's....Thatcher's approach was to redistribute to the rich of what little was left.
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I'd rather have good people in power than vindictive, narrow minded people. I'd rather that the person in charge of society believed in it. I want conviction politicians but IMHO you'd have the same result if you had a good, progressive left wing liberal conviction politician and a cold hearted, rational, logic by computer politician.
"I am not going to get into all that as that's just a personal opinion based on whether you benefited or where punished by her policies"
That is the most ignorant statement so far on this thread. Some people do actually vote for what they believe is right not what serves there short term interest. And honestly, unless you are murdoch or a rich banker, or someone else exceptionally privileged and living in a bubble completely removed from ordinary people then you are worse off as a result of her.
The fact that she made the trains run on time (or whatever the fuck the little fascist bitch is credited with) is irrelevant - she was misguided to the point of being evil, as you can tell just by looking at a photo of her bitter twisted little face.
How is it ignorant - plenty of people benefited from Thatcher and not just the rich - she was in power for a decade and her party for even more, and someone was voting her in. Plenty of people believed what she did was right, and that's what kept her in power.
I can't believe any one would vote UKIP, but I have met many people out In the shires who passionately believe in them. Just because you can't believe people would vote for thatcher for any other reason than self interest, doesn't mean you are right.
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"continue" would suggest some progress already. Sorry, but employment and standards of living for the less well off are exactly the same as when I left school (ie. fucking bleak) there has been no progress. Successive governments (of which a significant portion were labour) have made no attempt to put right any of the things that people vilify Thatcher for. That's as despicable as Thatcher at her worst.
I said 'continue to try', and that certainly doesn't imply progress. I also said that it is 'now more of an uphill struggle than ever before'.
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Celebrating Thatcher's death is like an extreme case of shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.
No it isn't. It's really about this country's future course - about how our history is interpreted to guide and justify that course. Her death and the resulting media interest is a natural field for that battle, and It's only futile if you already count it as fully and permanently lost.
agree with all the rest though.
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No it isn't. It's really about this country's future course - about how our history is interpreted to guide and justify that course. Her death and the resulting media interest is a natural field for that battle, and It's only futile if you already count it as fully and permanently lost.
I agree about the importance of interpreting history and using its lessons as a guide, but that's a different issue from celebrating Thatcher's death. I meant the latter with quite a narrow meaning.
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F*ck the pseudo-socialists that can afford to shed a tear over pan-seared salmon on a bed of rocket. I will be raising a glass of Drambuie to Thatcher tonight, I may even follow it up with a sweet British sherry, while gloating over my free toy motorcycle from the Poll Tax Riots. Most of you kids would have filled you nappies when faced with 40 coppers in full riot gear.
I digress but one funny incident I do remember was a bunch of Chelsea supporters turning up out of nowhere and facing off the coppers. The fans all linked arms to form a human wall and stood their ground while the coppers advanced. Bear in mind when I joined the march with a few other mates heading into Trafalgar Sq. it was all really peaceful, families, kids, just a quiet march. When we stopped at Trafalgar Sq. and the police started to wade in it all kicked off, it really was a free-for-all.
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so aside of the celebrations- whats the collective memory?
The lack of protection and fear that workers all over the land now face.
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Hmmm, is the thread about "the day that Thatcher died" or is it about people's opinions on Thatcher's affect on the United Kingdom?
I can't help feeling a little uneasy about comments calling an old, dead woman a "cunt" or a "little bitch" (unless DJ is involved) with such vehemence. There's a worrying tipping point when people who claim to be liberal seem to only apply their liberty to those they agree with yet become quite facist against those who do not hold similar views.
Treat others as you would be treated…? -
I digress but one funny incident I do remember was a bunch of Chelsea supporters turning up out of nowhere and facing off the coppers.
Ah, I thought that Clive must have been there.
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Most of you kids would have filled you nappies when faced with 40 coppers in full riot gear.
How typical. 40yr old+ man tells old "cool stories" and makes sweeping assumptions about the youth.
you been to Greece lately?
My generation rules the streets whilst trying to correct YOUR generation's fuck ups.
Soon it will be our turn in the board rooms and the parliament.
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How is it ignorant - plenty of people benefited from Thatcher and not just the rich - she was in power for a decade and her party for even more, and someone was voting her in. Plenty of people believed what she did was right, and that's what kept her in power.
A very shortsighted view-- not unlike the arguments about RR in US whose policies are to blame for the current state of affairs. Instead of investing in new technology for factories she helped convert the UK to a services economy. The last plank of the UK economy is its parsitic banks....
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People who like thatcher:
Zany Renney @ZanyRenney 5h
"great sadness that Mark and Carol Thatcher announced that their mother Baroness Thatcher died peacefully following a stroke this morning."
Was this the same bloke that led a coup d'etat against that small african nation in the hope to steal diamonds for himself?
N.E.C
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You said that the reason to vote was self-interest not me.
People thought she was benefitting them but she wasn't she was fucking it for everyone, even people with property and well paid jobs, except the the very richest.
No
You think that people thought that
They knew she was benefiting them
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I for one will mourn her passing, not so much for her politics, though i think a lot of what she did had to be done, just not in the way she did it. It's interesting to see the reaction on here being so one sided, and I am not going to get into all that as that's just a personal opinion based on whether you benefited or where punished by her policies, but to me she represented the last generation of the great politicians who really beloved in something and had the balls to do it.
In this day and age where all we have are a bunch of jumped up SPAD's leading our parties, hers was a time when politicians had convictions one way or another, and passionately fought for them, rather than the current bunch who are more interested in polls and media image than forging ahead with any real social change.
Hate her all you want, but I would rather have the likes of her involved in politics than the wet fish we have now.
Errrr, WTF??
I'm going to assume and generalise a bit here but I bet I'm pretty close
Still in your 20's?
From the home counties/London?
Middleclass? -
How typical. 40yr old+ man tells old "cool stories" and makes sweeping assumptions about the youth.
you been to Greece lately?
My generation rules the streets whilst trying to correct YOUR generation's fuck ups.
Soon it will be our turn in the board rooms and the parliament.
Good stuff, go for it and enjoy, you'll learn loads more first hand. Best of luck. Not meant patronisingly but I know that's how it will be taken.
If you could see me face-to-face over a pint you'd see me smiling.
Bear in mind my kids will try to correct your generation's fuck ups ;) and so it goes around and around and around...
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not taken patronisingly and we'll try not to screw up too bad to save your kids the trouble.
or at least work with them.
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The day that Thatcher died
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