Hovis's dream Burls Ti custom track

Hello all,

So I've been thinking about getting a frame made for me more and more, and have recently come into some excess funds, so have decided to bite the bullet and get a Burls made up for me. My current frame flexes like spaghetti under my immense power, and want I want something stiffer.

I've exchanged a few emails with Justin at Burls and it would seem they could pretty much build anything up for me. I'm seeing Scherrit who did my bike fit tomorrow for a follow up, and will most likely ask him to draw up the geometry for Justin.

I will use the bike everyday for getting to work and evening rides. The bike will never be locked in a public place and hence I am not concerned about riding an expensive bike around everyday.

I have some questions for anyone who might be able to help:

1. Seat stays: I've seen seein bjammins burls here https://www.lfgss.com/thread79447.html and I do quite like the look of the wishbone stays. However I've heard that that design tends to give a harsher ride. What are peoples thoughts on this, would the Ti's apparent magic properties counter this? Or should I just go for regular stays.

2. What forks? The frame will come with a traditional headset. I like the Ritchey WCS but I think thats for an integrated headset, so it might look wrong. Pretty much all the carbon forks I am seeing are made for integrated. Should I just accept this or are there any recommended ones? (for reference, I'm not keen on wound ups)

3. Wheels: I would like a slight deep section in the rims, and I'm currently thinking CXP33's. Are these a good choice, or should I splash out on something more exotic.

4. Any other options I should consider? I will ask for bottle cage bosses for the downtube. I am as of yet undecided about whether to ask for a rear brake bridge. I ride fixed with a front brake only, and in the last two years have put a freewheel on for one ride and one ride only (dunwich). I like the purity of a track frame, should I just get a clamp on rear should I decide to freewheel up again someday?

Sorry if I have asked a question that offends you. I like to bounce ideas around, hence the thread.

Thanks!

Defo wishbone stays.

You can get carbon forks for non integrated headsets. Pretty sure Reynolds did a version of their Ouzo pro, which is full carbon.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Reynolds-Ouzo-Pro-Road-Bike-Carbon-Fork-700c-43mm-Rake-1-1-8-/261079647954?pt=Cycling_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3cc98f46d2
(ask the seller, but it looks it)

I have cxp33s and like them. Given the chioce again, I would probably have gone for something wider though. Velocity a23, Stans ZTR road, HED ardennes etc.

B'jammin's Burls now has H son archetypes on it, but if you went for them, and this frame you'd be a copy cat copy cat, sitting on the door mat..

Deep(er) black rims look great on a ti frame...I've always thought black Shamals would be sooo sweet on B's.

My 2p contribution .. for what it’s worth

2 – If the headset is something like a King which has a fairly large bottom cup then some integrated forks can blend reasonably well .. Enve to King in attachment

4 – If it was my order and it's custom so I'd want to keep it for a while I’d consider future proofing and get a drilled rear brake bridge or drilled wishbone

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My 2p:

Get a headtube that will take an integrated headset – it looks better and you’ll have more fork options.

I echo smallfurry’s rim point. Also CPX33’s aren’t very deep. Something a little more blingy are DT Swiss RR 585 and they come in more drillings and a ti-like grey. There are also those new slightly beefed up stan's that might be worth a look. Otherwise HED belguims.

Defo wishbone stays.

You can get carbon forks for non integrated headsets. Pretty sure Reynolds did a version of their Ouzo pro, which is full carbon.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Reynolds-Ouzo-Pro-Road-Bike-Carbon-Fork-700c-43mm-Rake-1-1-8-/261079647954?pt=Cycling_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3cc98f46d2
(ask the seller, but it looks it)

Oh yes, I've seen those forks before. Are they discontinued? Cant seem to find them in the uk

B'jammin's Burls now has H son archetypes on it, but if you went for them, and this frame you'd be a copy cat copy cat, sitting on the door mat..

Deep(er) black rims look great on a ti frame...I've always thought black Shamals would be sooo sweet on B's.

I am very aware of his setup, and yeah, dont want to copy too much although theres only so much you can do with a ti track frame.

I did think shamals, but I would rather get something new.

My 2p:

Get a headtube that will take an integrated headset – it looks better and you’ll have more fork options.

I did think this, and he does offer an integrated tube but he says and i quote "Burls recommend standard headsets every time" and then he quotes chris king. Having said that I dont buy into all crap king whines about with integrated. I might go down this route actually.

I echo smallfurry’s rim point. Also CPX33’s aren’t very deep. Something a little more blingy are DT Swiss RR 585 and they come in more drillings and a ti-like grey. There are also those new slightly beefed up stan's that might be worth a look. Otherwise HED belguims.

Thanks, the DT RR's are heavy old things though. Ideally I want to keep the rims in the 450g range, should have mentioned that earlier. Will look into the HEDs, havent heard of them before.

If the headset is something like a King which has a fairly large bottom cup then some integrated forks can blend reasonably well .. Enve to King in attachment

Are there any other headsets with big cups like the kings? I personally feel the king headsets are a way of spending a lot of $$ for nothing other than a brand.

Oh yes, I've seen those forks before. Are they discontinued? Cant seem to find them in the uk

I am very aware of his setup, and yeah, dont want to copy too much although theres only so much you can do with a ti track frame.

I did think shamals, but I would rather get something new.

I did think this, and he does offer an integrated tube but he says and i quote "Burls recommend standard headsets every time" and then he quotes chris king. Having said that I dont buy into all crap king whines about with integrated. I might go down this route actually.

Thanks, the DT RR's are heavy old things though. Ideally I want to keep the rims in the 450g range, should have mentioned that earlier. Will look into the HEDs, havent heard of them before.

Are there any other headsets with big cups like the kings? I personally feel the king headsets are a way of spending a lot of $$ for nothing other than a brand.

Forks probs discontinued. Just buy from US EBay. Thay are always there.

But get integrated HS headtube anyway.

HED Belgiums look like a sweet balance of dimensions and weight. My issue with deeper rims, is that they become overbuilt if you use a typical 32 hole fixed hubset. I'd be tempted by a 32 spoke 3x rear (using track hub of chioce), and 24 spoke radial front (using budget lightweight road hub of 70g).

I personally feel the king headsets are a way of spending a lot of $$ for nothing other than a brand.

ouch! straight to the heart of the forum! lol .. I'm using a Tune headset and it blends nicely with an Enve fork .. not mine but a picture of a Baum with this setup.

The Reynolds forks are discounted so they'll be either 2nd hand or NOS

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TBH I was thinking 28/24h on the DT Swiss with some lighter spokes. Smallfurry's last comment sounds about right.

Personally I don't buy into CK's comments on integrated/semi integrated headsets... nor do I really buy into any of the claimed benefits. IMO it simply comes down to the fact that they look better and there are more fork choices. Also I generally think CK look too shouty, thank god you don't have to have the white font anymore. IMO the Cain Creek classic one looks better because there's less gashy graphics.

EDIT: ^ tune looks even better.

I am very aware of his setup, and yeah, dont want to copy too much although theres only so much you can do with a ti track frame.

Have a look into different finishes - that will help it stand out a bit. But you're pretty much right. Short of a respray it is what it is.

Excellent choice, ha. Looking forarwd to hearing your progress. I absolutely love my Burls, for all the reasons you require as well, so I doubt you'll be disappointed.

Forks-wise, I don't mind the Wound Ups, prefer them to the Easton's, but if money were no object I'd get some Enve...and hope to some day.

I'm not a fan of the CXP33, but they are a very strong rim and good for the money. The wider rim of the H+ was more of an incentive for me and, as it happens, both the Archetype and the TB14 are very nicely made and good looking rims.
I do miss the black deeper rimmed wheelset I had, agree with meds in that do suit a Ti frame very well.

As for a Headset, I don't have experience of the integrated, but I feel the Kings are fit and forget, they are a brand for a reason, right? I was pretty lucky to find a cheap and mint Ti over on Retrobike. It's one of the only Headsets I wouldn't think twice about buying secondhand to save some bucks.

How tall are you Hovis? You're welcome to have a spin on mine if it'll help with any decisions.

i am about to install a hope headset on my new bike (if the useless cunts at hotlines every actually deliver)

previously i have been a chris king fan, but having had issues with their customer service i am not so utterly enamoured

there appear to be some really neat features to the hope headsets and i would definitely consider using them again

to be fair most of the high end headsets work well, but of course when they become problematic people will complain more because they payed more and expect something for the premium. generally you expect tighter manufacturing tolerances and good customer service if things go wrong

Get a headtube that will take an integrated headset

Don't

But get integrated HS headtube anyway.

Really, don't

Chris King are less shouty in sotto voce, Cane Creek 110 might actually be better than CK. If you really want to go nuts, consider a big head tube and use the Cane Creek 110 with a conventional 1½" bottom cup and zero stack 1⅛" top cup (the blue one in the attached pic), then you can use a tapered fork like 3T Rigida, Easton EC90, Enve etc. You get the pleasing aesthetics of an integrated upper bearing and parallel sided head tube, backwards compatibility with a non-taper fork (by fitting a ZS lower bearing) and none of the imprecise fit associated with drop-in integrated bearings.

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to be fair most of the high end headsets work well

To be fair, most low end headsets work well if they are fitted properly to start with. I have a 26 year old Tange Levin which still works perfectly.

I have 40 year old headsets that work perfectly. I think steel headsets can last pretty much forever.

HED Belgiums look like a sweet balance of dimensions and weight. My issue with deeper rims, is that they become overbuilt if you use a typical 32 hole fixed hubset. I'd be tempted by a 32 spoke 3x rear (using track hub of chioce), and 24 spoke radial front (using budget lightweight road hub of 70g).

I'd never heard of this rim before. They look lovely and the reviews are positive. Although the 120 dollars a rim + america customs + postage etc. Puts me off. Are they available in the uk?

And yeah, I was thinking 32h rear and lower spoke count on the front too. Although I would like matching track hubs.

Excellent choice, ha. Looking forarwd to hearing your progress. I absolutely love my Burls, for all the reasons you require as well, so I doubt you'll be disappointed.

Forks-wise, I don't mind the Wound Ups, prefer them to the Easton's, but if money were no object I'd get some Enve...and hope to some day.

I'm not a fan of the CXP33, but they are a very strong rim and good for the money. The wider rim of the H+ was more of an incentive for me and, as it happens, both the Archetype and the TB14 are very nicely made and good looking rims.
I do miss the black deeper rimmed wheelset I had, agree with meds in that do suit a Ti frame very well.

As for a Headset, I don't have experience of the integrated, but I feel the Kings are fit and forget, they are a brand for a reason, right? I was pretty lucky to find a cheap and mint Ti over on Retrobike. It's one of the only Headsets I wouldn't think twice about buying secondhand to save some bucks.

How tall are you Hovis? You're welcome to have a spin on mine if it'll help with any decisions.

Thanks for the offer bjam, I'm 5ft10 so i suspect I'm too midget for your bike :( Having said it would be nice to have a look at it if youre not too far?

Don't

Really, don't

Chris King are less shouty in sotto voce, Cane Creek 110 might actually be better than CK. If you really want to go nuts, consider a big head tube and use the Cane Creek 110 with a conventional 1½" bottom cup and zero stack 1⅛" top cup (the blue one in the attached pic), then you can use a tapered fork like 3T Rigida, Easton EC90, Enve etc. You get the pleasing aesthetics of an integrated upper bearing and parallel sided head tube, backwards compatibility with a non-taper fork (by fitting a ZS lower bearing) and none of the imprecise fit associated with drop-in integrated bearings.

I think Burls will only do a standard head tube with 1 1/8 both sides.

One thing that was making me lean towards IS is that I already have a campag record IS headset lying around, which would be nice to put into something. Although from the various people I have spoken to about it including yourself standard cups seems to be the general consesus.

CK headsets arent as expensive as I thought they were. I might have to go back on what I said earlier and go with that option. And the non white logo is a lot more pleasing to the eye.

To be fair, most low end headsets work well if they are fitted properly to start with. I have a 26 year old Tange Levin which still works perfectly.

Yep! I've always said this too

Damn, the packaging of that cane creek 110 headset makes it look like some kind of crown jewel!

I saw the bike whisperer again yesterday. He is going to draw up the geometry on bike cad and send it over to Burls. They have worked together in the past and go back and forth with options etc so I'm feeling pretty optimistic this will turn out brilliantly.

Scherrit recommended I get slightly larger tubing around the BB area to get the stiffness in the drivetrain I am after, will mention this to Justin and see what he comes back with.

Am getting excited about this, my birthday is at the end of October, fingers crossed I get this baby before then :)

Is the bike going to have front and rear brake bridges?

If I were getting a custom Ti frame, I'd think about something like this:

But with internal cable routing and wishbone stay. Enve forks would be my first choice.

Can you get integrated Ti seatposts?

Has anyone got much experience (anecdotal or otherwise) of how a carbon track fork would handle the daily grind of urban riding London? (assuming no freestyle tricks)

I've been ogling the Enve carbon track fork, but quite a few builders seem to be gently leaning towards steel forks.

I have a full carbon EC90 fork, using it for a year, still in a fine form, nor crashes etc

Is the bike going to have front and rear brake bridges?

If I were getting a custom Ti frame, I'd think about something like this:

But with internal cable routing and wishbone stay. Enve forks would be my first choice.

Think I will get wishbone stays with a drilling for rear brake. Although I will run it with front brake only, but want to future proof it.

Lovely looking bike that, although I will go for a brushed ti finish I think. And beefy tubes for BB area.

Can you get integrated Ti seatposts?

I think he will do it yeah. But I prefer the traditional setup with 27.2 post. More versatile and lets me pack it into a bike box if travelling with it.

Has anyone got much experience (anecdotal or otherwise) of how a carbon track fork would handle the daily grind of urban riding London? (assuming no freestyle tricks)

I've been ogling the Enve carbon track fork, but quite a few builders seem to be gently leaning towards steel forks.

Track forks, where they are actually different from road versions, are usually built stronger and stiffer. The fork will survive, but your wrists won't. Also, the Enve track fork doesn't appear to have a brake drilling, a legal and practical necessity for road use.

Are Ti forks a little flexy?

Just to clarify (before a comment like 'yes they flex' comes along) are they more or noticeably more flexy than carbon or steel forks?

Yes. In a bad way.