Take one set of tubes...

What would you say the basics are for starting a project like this?

It's not about the kit, it's about the skill.

You certainly don't need to have an expensive jig. You don't even need to have an Oxy-Acetylene welding rig. You can get by with a few files, a hacksaw and some Mapp Gas, but you do need to learn how to use them.

Also, read this book:

Lugged Bicycle Frame Construction Manual First Time Builder by Andre Chimonas

It gives the most accessible overview available.

1. 1000a
   
2. stedocks
   
3. CasaSteve
   

1. AngelD
   
   

Something I have wanted to do since I was 15yrs old!

Oh, and Jingle Jangle, I doff my cap to you Sir, fine stuff!

I will have to read that. That would be a good start, I would love to start building up the skills necessary.

Really great thread

Saw this set of tubing on ebay and thought of this thread. Its Ishiwata 017 which I believe was used on some Bridgestone frames. Looks to be going fairly cheap for what I understand to be a decent set of tubing. Seller has two sets.

Edit - both go in the next 15 mins

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ishiwata-017-set-of-butted-tubes-very-rare?item=180920856389&cmd=ViewItem&_trksid=p5197.m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D1%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D527450451094717853http://rover.ebay.com/roverimp/1/710-53481-19255-0/1?ff3=2&pub=5574889051&toolid=10001&campid=5336525415&item=180920856389&mpt=[CACHEBUSTER]

Did a little bit of practise brazing last weekend.

Brazing is different from welding. With welding you actually melt two pieces of metal so that they join together. You might use a filler rod to strengthen the joint, but the key point is you heat the metal to melting point.

With brazing, the joint is made secure by a filler. A filler is a metal that has a melting point which is lower than the metal to be joined - you heat the filler until it becomes liquid, and then introduce that liquid to the surfaces to be joined.

Fillers used in bicycle making are usually either Silver or Brass. Most of the 'how to' manuals recommend Silver as a filler. I think this is primarily because Silver has a lower melting point than Brass, and can therefore be used with MAPP Gas, which is available from DIY stores - you can even get it in B&Q.

Which ever filler rod you choose, the principles are basically the same.

With fillet brazing two mated surfaces a joined together by building up a 'fillet' of brazing material. To achieve a decent finish using this technique requires a great deal of skill, and is not recommended for the novice builder.

My build will utilise a 'lugged' construction. With this method, a sleeve or lug is placed over the two tubes to be joined. The very fine gap between the lug and the tubes is then filled with either silver or brass which has been melted using the torch. The molten filler is persuaded into the gap by a combination of gravity, capillary action and the use of heat.

That's the theory anyway - in practise, it's a bugger to get the hang of. Here are the results of last weeks attempt:

Not pretty in any way.

I think I made a few schoolboy errors. In particular, I think I heated up the tube and lug too much. This meant that the brass went all over the place, rather than where it was supposed to go. I also tried to rush it, which is something you can't really do.

Hopefully, I will be able to have another practise tomorrow - until I master this skill, I won't be going any further.

So very similar to joining copper tubes for household plumbing, in essence?

I use a MAPP gas torch for that.

Great stuff. Not only am I learning stuff but also getting more of an appreciation for the expertise master frame builders have just putting these things together.

So very similar to joining copper tubes for household plumbing, in essence?

I use a MAPP gas torch for that.

Yes - tricky to get mapp hot enough for brass brazing. Works ok for silver though.

Mr Jangle, It looks like your flux is spent, it has either been over cooked, or just heated for too long. Try using more, and remember to add more, if necessary, during the brazing.
The blackening might be the result of a slightly carbonising flame, so try a little more oxygen in the mix.
Some brasses work better for capillary work, and some for fillets, so make sure you've got one that is free flowing. I used SIF Bronze 101 for capillary, and SIF Bronze 1 for fillets, they behave very differently, 101 melts lower and flows well. Also use small diameter rod for capillary as the whole rod melts evenly easier. I used the Cycle Designs LFB flux and found it lasted quite well if I didn't heat pass a nice vivid orange. If you've not already seen it, this video is quite good:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u94WsKf6JRo"]silver
brazing lugged bicycle joint with MAP gas - YouTube[/ame]
The video shows silver with MAPP, but everything he demonstrates worked for me with brass and oxy-propylene mix. I think with oxy-acetylene, with it being even hotter, you need to keep the flame moving more(that is don't forget to move the flame around, to prevent over heating, while you are feeding in the filler).

The one place that made actual, real MAPP stopped in 2008! Now it is all propylene mixes called MAP or MAP-Pro or such. They can work fine for brass if used with oxygen with the right torch mixer.

I do not know what modern tubing it applies to but Reynolds mandated that you must only use silver soldering for 753 because heating it more than 1200 degrees damaged the heat treatment and weakened the tubes.

That applies to all the heat treated tubes, I think! But none of the Columbus range (which ceeway mainly supplies) AFAIK. I think you need a special Reynolds certificate to be sold their 753.

I'm not sure they even supply 753 any more - I believe the builder had to supply two sample 753 frames to be sent back to Reynolds and cut apart for them them to check that the build was of sufficiently high quality before they were certified to use it. It was very, very thin.

I know Rourke, for example, TIG weld their 953 (i.e., stainless) frames because there's much less heat damage to the tubing, but I also thought that certain tubing actually gets stronger due to the heat from the brazing process. 853, maybe? Not sure.

Wow those 017 tubes went for nothing. Amaright in saying the 017 set is pretty much the lightest tubeset available?

I'm guessing you're referring to an Ishiwata 017 tube set?

They also made 015 steel tubes that were even lighter but weren't recommended for general use. I'm not sure how the weight of 017 compares to modern steel alloys from Reynolds, Columbus or Dedacciai.

Thought this might be a help, links (only) in Finnish -
http://www.yksivaihde.net/site/foorumi/topic.php?id=13331
http://http://www.flickr.com/photos/46678502@N03/sets/72157631252786666/
Amazing stuff.

^ excellent photos there

The Finnish stuff looks great, can't open the Flikr set.

Must get on with this project!

I am extremely happy to have found this thread. Subbed.

In October I'm also off to do the frame and fork building course at Downland Cycles. I'll be making a fairly simple lugged road bike, as it's my first experience of frame building.

I have done a bit of silver soldering in the past, but much smaller scale stuff than bikes, so this is a new experience for me. I spoke to Ricky Feather at the Vulpine Fete this summer and he said "It's just technical plumbing, really." I think it's a bit more intimidating that for a novice! He's also a very nice man, I must say.

If anyone would like to borrow a copy of Chimonas' book I have it, and I also have a pdf of Richard Talbot's build guide, which is long out of print.

My dream is to get a group of people together to share a facility to practice and learn frame building. Perhaps that's not as unrealistic as I first thought...

The URL for the flickr set was a bit broken, try this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/46678502@N03/sets/72157631252786666/

Good story.
I've built frames too, but never at home.
I would like to build some, but some issues still stop me from doing is.

I don't have access to shotblasting equipment
Good wet paintwork is very expensive
I don't like the idea of storing bottles with gas
Product liability in case I build for someone else
Lack of time and space
Don't know if I get f&f perfectly straight w/o trueing table

Good luck
I'll keep following this.

I've said this a few times on different threads, but I have an empty garage and all the time in the world to sort shit, all who are serious about giving it a go are welcome, but as I have no equipment and will be my first build, it will have to be in the spirit of a co-op arrangement.

Am looking soon to be getting a pillar drill and MIG welder to practice on, but ideally won't to learn brazing.

Based TW15

I wish I had known about the Downland courses before, as I was living there 2yrs ago!

Need to build a rig...

Go on, do it.

What torch & tip are you using, Jangle? Also, did you need any sort of permit for the acetylene? That stuff scares me a bit.