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Yes. "Coöperate" is nuts to me because the second o represents a perfectly normal English sound and a hyphen would work fine, if anything is needed at all. The broader point is that people and institutions love to make absolutist pronouncements about correct usage but they are rarely justified, and often only make things more effortful or jarring to the reader. DJing is easier to read than "D.J.-ing" is my point.
Isn't that's an En dash you've put there?
Ha! Now fixed!
(It should always be 'En dashes' and 'Em dashes'.)
Why? It has always been lowercase 'em' and 'en' in British English usage, used to signify the measurement of the type block 'N' and 'M'. Written as 'en' and 'em' to avoid confusion among printers between discussions about type measure and about actual letters. US or International English may differ idk.
Why not, if you're professionally concerned with them (as I guess you are)?
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Why? It has always been lowercase 'em' and 'en' in British English usage, used to signify the measurement of the type block 'N' and 'M'.
Because the reference letters are uppercase, because it's a name, and to distinguish it from the measurement unit.
It's obviously somewhat circular. :)
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It's obviously somewhat circular. :)
It's not circular, it's a line! :-)
To take your arguments for (It should always be 'En dashes' and 'Em dashes') in turn.
Because the reference letters are uppercase
The name 'em' was in reference to the block size of the uppercase letter M, but that's no reason for it to be uppercase itself. If it was about the shape, like T-shirt or Q-tip, we'd maybe be in agreement.
because it's a name
Well, it's a noun, but it's not a proper noun, so it doesn't need a capital for that reason.
and to distinguish it from the measurement unit.
It is the measurement unit (the em of pica is a third of an inch or something) so doesn't need distinguishing from itself.
Feel like I may have lost the room long ago at this point, but have attached some screengrabs from the OED on the usages of 'em' for fellow nerds … en-joy!
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It's not circular, it's a line! :-)
And what is a circle other than a circular line? I rest my case, m'lord.
Because the reference letters are uppercase
The name 'em' was in reference to the block size of the uppercase letter M, but that's no reason for it to be uppercase itself. If it was about the shape, like T-shirt or Q-tip, we'd maybe be in agreement.
Well, the lowercase letter m does not have the same block size.
because it's a name
Well, it's a noun, but it's not a proper noun, so it doesn't need a capital for that reason.
Yes, and more specifically, it's a name. It's a name that has recognisable components, but it's still a name. Obviously, the English word 'noun' comes from the Latin word 'nomen'=name, but in English, name and noun are different concepts. Equally obviously, there are different conventions for capitalisation of names; I've always found it interesting that there are lowercase usernames on here, and I observe the convention of not capitalising them, even at the beginning of sentences. Some names have capitals on every component, and some have a mix, e.g. Transport for London.
and to distinguish it from the measurement unit.
It is the measurement unit (the em of pica is a third of an inch or something) so doesn't need distinguishing from itself.
The Em dash is not the measurement unit, the em is. Not sure what you were driving at there.
Feel like I may have lost the room long ago at this point, but have attached some screengrabs from the OED on the usages of 'em' for fellow nerds … en-joy!
I'm well aware of general usage, but both variants are in use. In my opinion, 'Em dash' and 'En dash' are clearer and better. They still contain the idea that the dashes are derived from the measurement unit, but clarify that they are different from the unit.
Don't worry about losing the room, unless you go to Nerd Nite, in which case you don't have to worry about losing the room, either. (NB I've never been, nor have I been to Dorkbot, although I have been to GeekstraVEGANza. I thought I'd clarify this.)
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Can’t go into all the reasons the above is incorrect, but no: em is lowercase.
In brief:
The word em is the name of a measurement based on, but no longer dictated by, the letter M.Context and rarity clarify its meaning. It doesn’t need a capital, like it doesn’t need putting in bold or underlining. It is. We don’t need to gild the lily. English dropped capitalisation of all Nouns in Sentences just because they’re Names a couple of Centuries ago.
There’s an argument for preference, sure! Why would I care about personal usage? I wouldn’t dream of arguing the point if you hadn’t ‘corrected’ me with such authority in the first place.
Capitalising ‘em’ makes as much sense as capitalising ‘alpha’ every time you use it (eg: he was no Alpha male). Just because it once referred to a capital, doesn't mean it needs a capital. If it was about the shape, it could be argued for. Take the L.
Again, can’t believe I have such strong opinions on usage of em. Need to go to Nerd Nite, be among my tribe.
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Sorry, I missed this.
Can’t go into all the reasons the above is incorrect
No, please do.
but no: em is lowercase.
Yes, as I said. See above.
In brief:
The word em is the name of a measurement based on, but no longer dictated by, the letter M.Indeed.
Context and rarity clarify its meaning. It doesn’t need a capital, like it doesn’t need putting in bold or underlining. It is. We don’t need to gild the lily. English dropped capitalisation of all Nouns in Sentences just because they’re Names a couple of Centuries ago.
I'm not sure I understand in what way this is meant to be an argument. Plenty of names and specific nouns are capitalised in English. This is often to clarify different usages of the same word, e.g. 'the Bible' or 'the bible of the XYZ movement'. Part of the misunderstanding here seems to be the assumption on your part that just because something doesn't 'need' something, it shouldn't have it? I don't think I can really work out what you meant to mean, though.
There’s an argument for preference, sure! Why would I care about personal usage? I wouldn’t dream of arguing the point if you hadn’t ‘corrected’ me with such authority in the first place.
Where did I correct you? I said: 'It should always be ...' and that continues to be my view. A correction would be: 'It is always ...' or just the correct word/spelling/whatever.
Capitalising ‘em’ makes as much sense as capitalising ‘alpha’ every time you use it (eg: he was no Alpha male). Just because it once referred to a capital, doesn't mean it needs a capital. If it was about the shape, it could be argued for. Take the L.
It's actually a good case in point and very similar. I would here likewise capitalise 'Alpha male' and consider that better than lowercase.
Again, can’t believe I have such strong opinions on usage of em. Need to go to Nerd Nite, be among my tribe.
So, did you go? :)
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Very good. As ladders kind of have two step sides, the price must have been on both. :)
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I'm glad they underlined the relevant bits.
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Why is it a £X "black hole" and not just a hole? I'm no cosmologist so I don't know if there is a peculiar quality of black holes that makes it apt or is it simply meant to make it sound more ominous?
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It's a relatively small hole pulling in everything around it.
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Aha! We have a fundamental difference in our understanding of what constitutes common and proper nouns. I'm going with this version, so we'll have to agree to disagree.
Bible vs bible is a nice example of how metaphorical use of proper nouns can make them common nouns though.
It started in uppercase as 'this is the Bible of this' because it once had direct reference to the actual Bible (proper noun) but, through a lot of usage, it became a common metaphorical phrase and is now 'the bible of xyz' (common noun) when used transitively.
So, did you go? :)
Not yet. Nerd Nite doesn't appear to be happening atm. If anyone knows of a grammar geeks' gathering, I'm there! :)
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They would have got away with it if it hadn't been for one silly mistake.
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Keir Starmer and his "measurable milestones". As distinct from the those misleadingly named milestones that are random distances apart.
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This feels perfect for this thread.
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Oliver Naesen, Decathlon AG2R La Mondiale’s resident Classics king, will be licking his lips after reading that description, particularly as he couldn’t rain in the superlatives when describing the RCR after getting his hands on it last year.
Does the rein in Spain fall mainly on the plains?
croggy
Oliver Schick
hangedup
WillMelling
snottyotter
psg1ben
bontie
Gewürzt
duncs
eskay
andyp
elswick
hippy-
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Loosing? Learn the English language, people!
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It's all a bit /pəteɪtəʊ/-/pətātō/ really, as with most things in language, but yeah having typeset a few things in my time it’s one of those things I always notice
(The second 'one-of-a-kind' in the screenshot is using en dashes just to show how much wider they really are)