Primary position

I tend not to shift at all and stay in my position, when they remark about where I should be, I just smile and give them a wave as if they're saying hello, good way to defused a situation.

I used to do the slight wobble as well to keep drivers from overtaking me, but feel that I'm being a nuisance rather than working with other road users.

chased mine but he turned off and I didn't want a wild detour chase for a fight in the suburbs

I work on cycling events as a mobile mechanic for a variety of organisations, and one has a number of signs along the route saying "cyclists ride in single file" "cyclists keep to the left"
I have told the organisers this is poor advice and they should review it, but they haven't. Today on one of the events (a charity bike ride with a lot of inexperienced cyclists) a car tried to overtake cyclists who were riding as the signs recommended. This was on a narrow rural minor road. As there were lots of cyclists he ended up going around a left hand bend with no forward vision at all.
He then hit a car head on, and rolled into one of the cyclists. Fortunately the cyclist was completely unhurt (although the bike was wrecked, as was his shiny new Mini!). Had the cyclists been either in the primary position or two abreast the driver would have had to wait until the road was clear so he could overtake.

I find having marshall from the LCC (as an example) work much better and helped the inexperienced cyclists to feel comfortable.

Shannon is spot on. You’d be better off adopting the shrinking violet approach (and ride in the gutter) if you’re are going to do what the first cyclist did which was to move to the middle of the road without looking at all. You’d have thought when the first car passed, he would have taken that as a cue to have a check at what might be following behind but no. He should take some responsibility for putting himself in a position blindly.

Something to remember: Looking back isn’t just to know what is there; it’s to also humanise yourself. You go from being an object potentially “In my f**king way” to “ok there’s someone on that bike and they’ve just made eye contact. What’s this idiot cyclist wanting to do next?” (<-the mindset of an ultra cantankerous driver.) Surely most can see the difference in potential outcomes?

Given the uninformed, gormless and lazy "I pay road tax" argument that we've all heard ad nauseum, you could see how said driver(s) would take offence to a 'scummy' cyclist taking the lane without any signal or acknowledgement. When was the last time you saw any smiles, thumbs up, a wave or the words "thank you" from a cyclist to a driver (or even to a fellow cyclists) last week, month or year?! I rarely do. It's human psychology that we like being thanked and recognised for the little things we do. I firmly believe better manners would ease many of these potential confrontations. Next time you find yourself going through a pinch point get into position on time and try looking said driver in the eye with a thumb up in advance.

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](http://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.com/2011/05/09/the-primary-position-putting-uk-cyclists-between-a-rock-and-a-hard-place/?replytocom=346#respond)

Also many of you still seem to be doing the, "I have rights. I'm going to sit in the primary position belligerently" irrespective of the road conditions. Surely this is what causes a lot of flare ups? Are there any conditions in which you'd temporarily move into secondary position to allow a faster moving vehicle to pass before going back to primary?

Looking back isn’t just to know what is there; it’s to also humanise yourself.

Bang on I think! I always make sure I look back at drivers and make eye contact at busy junctions while waiting for the lights to change, especially if I'm about to take a right turn. Some drivers get really self concious, like "why is he looking at me?" and I think it does help, you ensure other drivers are aware of you and they do tend to take a bit of care.

A cabbie passed me a bit too close for comfort a few weeks ago. I accelerated up to the lights where he was stopped and got him to roll down his window. I told him what he'd done and he went "I'm sorry". I thought he was being sarcastic and making out he didn't hear me so repeated myself three times to just hear "and I'm sorry" each time. He was genuinely apologising, and I was getting angrier and angrier thinking he was pretending not to hear! I think our presumptions can influence how we treat these situations sometimes!

ha! oops...

I'm always thanking drivers, for not rear-ending me, for slowing down, for letting me out etc. I suppose it's a bit daft as most of the time I'm basically thanking them for not running me over... but I like to just acknowledge that they've taken the care to modify their driving in some way to accomodate me. I worry a bit that I'm not super smiley, and I can't bring myself to do thumbs up or anything, so it's more of a half-smile, a nod, a wave or whatever.

One of the things I like about London traffic, and that I think sets it apart from most other towns I've been in, is that there is a lot of give and take. Even though it might appear chaotic and aggressive, it's actually rather flexible and accomodating. Drivers generally look out for unexpected behaviour, they're used to being temporarily inconvenienced. They might be a bit rude about it but they're used to interacting with other road users (and wandering pedestrians) who they know will read situations differently and maybe respond differently to them.

It's when you get out to the towns and drivers basically aren't looking out for anything, they drive the same roads everyday and they aren't expecting bikes, even if they do see you they think you "shouldn't be there" and are extremely reluctant to change anything about the way they are driving. That's when I feel nervous. It's like they're going to drive straight through you...

Stay in the city, it's safer here.

/actuallylivesintheprovinces

The ride to Dorset made me feel a bit better about country roads. I was at the rear of the group for a little bit giving heads up for the group on vehicles coming up and also signalling to drivers behind us when the road was clear for overtakes and we got so many of those "hazard light" acknowledgement thingys...
Problem was when I tried to do the same thing (signalling left and right simultaneously) and ended up in the bramble bushes. All that was missing was my beret, mac and the effeminate screech of Bettyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy before impact.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I've had just one mad driver in the last 6 months react badly when I took primary (and she did a champion job, driving down the right-hand side of a crowded road, yelling and beeping her horn). Haven't suffered any aggro for staying out of bicycle lanes either. Not even those mad long stretches along Maple Street and Torrington Place.

As mentioned earlier, if you match the speed of vehicles then there's no issue.

Also many of you still seem to be doing the, "I have rights. I'm going to sit in the primary position belligerently" irrespective of the road conditions. Surely this is what causes a lot of flare ups? Are there any conditions in which you'd temporarily move into secondary position to allow a faster moving vehicle to pass before going back to primary?

+1 - there's a fine line between being an assertive road user and a sanctimonious prick.

Yesterdays situation I'd looked, moved to primary, looked again, moved back to secondary, acknowledged with a wave, then waved thru. Still the driving instructor saw fit to have a word, incorrectly. Can't do much more really.

Report the instructor to the DVLA or whatever the standards authority is. Might be interesting to hear the party line…

Have emailed the DSA asking for guidance on what I should be saying to instructors. Highway code point 61 & 63 are the key:

"Use of these facilities is not compulsory and will depend on your experience and skills, but they can make your journey safer."

&

"Use of cycle lanes is not compulsory and will depend on your experience and skills, but they can make your journey safer"

^good work - look forward to hearing their reply/stance.

acknowledgment says we'll be waiting upto 10 days... will keep you posted.

All that was missing was my beret, mac and the effeminate screech of Bettyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy before impact.

hehe. Brilliant (not the fall).

A weird thing happened to me last week in Hackney, I came out of our road and turned left into a really busy road with fast moving traffic so I kept to a good secondary position to allow it to go by. I needed to go right quite a long way down the road and looked back to check what was coming before signalling/moving out and got the shock of my life that a massive white van was less than a metre from by back wheel (he wasn't there last time I'd looked), he could easily go past but was intent on making a point I guess? He started honking when I looked right into his eye which I thought would humanise me. I felt trapped because I needed to maneuver across/stop to turn but was worried he'd plough right into me. My friend who'd ridden ahead came back to see what was going on and banged on his window, the guy jumped out the van and started screaming "What the fuck is your problem?" at me. I was shell shocked and didn't say anything. The two guys began to argue and the driver tried to headbutt my friend(!) before driving off. My friend then started shouting at me saying I should NEVER ride in the secondary position and I began to cry (out of anger I suppose) because well it's my goddamn job to teach people how to ride safely on the road! There is nowhere near the amount of cyclists in Birmingham and cars have no idea how to treat us but I rarely encounter aggression such as this yet in London where bikes are so abundant now, I encounter aggression quite often...it's quite interesting. I feel like when I move to London/if I teach here I will have to adapt how I teach to take into consideration alot of differences.

On a separate note, since training over a year ago now, I've never once been offered a meeting with other instructors or my boss/further training from the ITO. I usually read about changes and developments here or from CTUK directly and it frustrates me as I think it would be good to talk things like this through. The communication is frankly very poor. Further to the above incident, I then spent the rest of the day questioning myself, I always ride in the primary position when it's safe to do so but feel like I should also act sensibly and not block the roads when I'm going slower. I teach the syllabus exactly as it says on this topic but it seems like different instructors have different opinions on this...I know some instructors who NEVER take up primary except when turning and others who are adamant that you should all the time.

Maybe it's time for another instructors drinks evening? I know LMNH is the default location but perhaps we could go somewhere where you don't have to do two Dr Bikes to be able to pay for a beer?

^sex pest

This is the nub of my current frustration: The standards of teaching are not equal.

I though the national standard, by the book was spot on, and and work well around the world, apart from places like India where the bigger the vehicles the more right it have.

Definitely not. You don't have to go too up the page to see advocation of sitting in the middle of the lane no matter the size of the road, the type of traffic and the speed of the rider.

Irresponsible IMO

That wasn't you who just said hello to me from a car in Stoke Newington was it Festus?

Maybe it's time for another instructors drinks evening? I know LMNH is the default location but perhaps we could go somewhere where you don't have to do two Dr Bikes to be able to pay for a beer?

Good plan Will
Let's all make a date, we've a lot to talk about
**Wed 10th August evening from 1800 at The Nobody Inn, Newington Green?
http://www.beerintheevening.com/pubs/s/64/6495/Nobody_Inn/Newington_Green
**
Who's in?

1. skydancer