Primary position

This is a good point Oliver. Sadly, several of the most dangerous cyclists I have ever riden with have been cycle instructors. [...]

All the cycle instructors I know are very good, safe, and responsible riders. The people you know must be odd indeed. :)

While I totally take your point and don't want to question your judgement about what happened, it is worth mentioning that, while riding in the primary position is generally pretty safe, it can appear more 'dangerous' to onlookers. This is obviously a reflection of the method of making risk more conspicuous.

Before anybody starts to try to guess which instructors I am talking about, please note that I do know some who are not on this forum or from London. I am also in no way saying that all cycle instructors are dangerous riders, I am talking about a minority.

Hell yeah, Dan, don't worry, we all know that you're really talking about all the roads between London and Cumbria getting Scobled. ;P

Primary position is a very useful tool that I can use when the circumstances mean that it will put me in a safer position. If there is space for me to safely be out of the way on the left I will do so instead.

Just be careful to let your riding be guided by your risk assessment of traffic conditions. There is no reason to express an unequivocal preference for one position over the other. This aspect of cycle training really just seeks to correct people's tendency to think that the secondary position is somehow inherently the preferential position. That may not be what you meant, but that's how it comes across.

Like all safe cycling theories, they must only be used where appropriate rather than as a rule.

Yes, and remember that it's not only a 'safe cycling theory'. It's really about making riding more enjoyable, in the way in which greater skill generally makes things enjoyable. Most people, for instance, tend to (vastly) overestimate the risk to them when they move in traffic, partly from knowing very little about traffic. Giving them a little more knowledge can really help make their riding more enjoyable. There are other aspects to it, too.

(Small rant: Many people (not you) are obsessed with the concept of 'safety'. This is a reductionist bogeyman that's surprisingly hard to explain. In the grand scheme of things, for cycling, the importance of 'safety' as an action-guiding concept is relatively small. It is extraordinarily important in dangerous occupations, such as working in a shipyard or a coal mine, but for cycling, which is not 'dangerous', its pre-eminence really results from a combination of enhancing factors that are not immediately obvious--e.g., a sense of social abandonment that people tend to experience from feeling like a minority in the UK's predominantly non-cycling culture (which is changing fast), i.e. a feeling of a lack of the safety that one can normally rely on from social consideration. Cyclists often feel discriminated against. This flows into the idea of a lack of safety from the mere physical experience of interacting with people who drive cars and accounts for much of the well-known gap between the perception of 'danger' and actual risk (the perception is usually higher, often much higher, and in some people positively hysterical).

Quite often, the perception is additionally reinforced by people doing something for which they are not skilled enough and which they expect they should be able to do very easily and without any effort on their part, because 'it's just like riding a bike'. There are, of course, a number of different cycling skills. For instance, quite a few of the best bike handlers I know, strong riders who will happily ride 150 miles very fast, are very scared of motor traffic and interact with it very badly. By contrast, I'm a rubbish bike handler, but I've never had a problem riding in traffic. Some people are neither good bike handlers, nor good in traffic.

So, 'safety' is something that tends to crowd out other important topics to consider. Don't get me wrong, there are still far too many collisions, but pegging them only to the concept of 'safety' is a red herring. We'll be far more effective at reducing them if we think about this with a broader picture in mind.)

...and I'm sure Oliver will agree that Road Danger Reduction has an improved take on the mainstream thinking around road safety.
...and Oliver, your bike handling skills are fine:)

Would this be a good point to establish/re-establish how people define 'primary position'? It's not a static location as far as I'm concerned…

Primary position is when you are riding in the traffic stream and drivers who wish to pass have to move to the next/oncoming lane.
Secondary is when you move to the left of the traffic stream letting a driver pass without them having to completely change lanes
ideally you get given the same room by drivers when they pass because you are in secondary position when there is room for them to pass you wide
Both these positions relate to the traffic stream not the kerb

experienced riders move between these positions dynamically as Oliver said depending on circumstances.
cycle trainers don't tell you where to ride. They assess with you different options and shift your relationship from 'distance from the kerb' to 'position in the traffic stream' .

When you get used to riding like this you command so much more space on the road and cars rarely pass you close which feels great and is why I struggled recently on a forum ride to follow roadie conventions letting drivers squeeze past on country lanes. It also why I would feel squeezed in cycle lanes if I used them

Primary position on a dual carriageway can be quite overwhelming eh dan? ;)

I rode primary in those section of the road because of visibility, the sooner they see me the better, secondary position on a dual carriageway is bloody scary thought, driver rarely ever give you a wide breth on that road.

...and Oliver, your bike handling skills are fine:)

I have great difficulty doing any off-road riding or downhill riding (not to mention uphill, which is for reasons other than bike handling), and my reactions are pretty slow. I obviously compensate for that somehow, but not in all situations, and it still means that I perceive my bike handling as a weakness. Most people I meet with any experience of cycling are better bike handlers than I am. Obviously, my bike handling is fine for the kind of riding I do, but I feel that it limits me from certain kinds of riding. I don't mind that much, by the way.

You did off road very well on an unacceptable bicycle on a very short section of essex last Saturday oilver.

Primary position is when you are riding in the traffic stream and drivers who wish to pass have to move to the next/oncoming lane.
Secondary is when you move to the left of the traffic stream letting a driver pass without them having to completely change lanes

This obviously depends on the lane widths involved. In a wide kerb lane of 4.5 metres, there is arguably no need to be in the primary position, as users of most motor vehicles can overtake with good clearance within the lane. Even for a 3 metre wide lane, a rider would have to be in a fairly extreme kind of secondary position for a driver to squeeze past within the lane. However, as the standard width for general traffic lanes tends to be 3.5m (in London, historic street widths obviously often make this impossible), which is in the range of 'critical widths' between 3m and 4.4/4.5m, where close overtaking can and does frequently take place within the lane, what you say is generally one of the most important considerations. (Also, close overtaking often involves only a slight movement outside of the lane, perhaps squeezing past oncoming traffic which in turn might move over slightly.)

Anyway, lane widths are to some extent a red herring, as while drivers tend to be very much guided by them (given that they fit the width of their vehicles; if traffic lanes were 10m wide, or roughly four times the width of their vehicles, drivers would be in a similar position to cyclists, who can move dynamically within lanes and tend to be guided by them much less), cyclists need not be, and they are like kerbs as fixed markers that aren't actually of the greatest importance in determining where one should be. I just mention lanes because there are certain desirable lane widths.

I struggled recently on a forum ride to follow roadie conventions letting drivers squeeze past on country lanes. It also why I would feel squeezed in cycle lanes if I used them

Firstly, 'roadie conventions' are behaviours which have been established over many years of riding (solo/small groups/large groups) around the lanes, and are as much about public relations as safety; and equally effective for both purposes.

Secondly, I'd never describe a forum ride as employing roadie conventions, because the personnel invovled are far too diverse. If you want to experience roadie conventions, you need to join a club ride.

And I'd almost always be going down the secondary position route on a dual carriageway. Primary position would, for the most part, be fucking mental.

I'm not the kind of rider who shys away from being assertive either. I'm very aware of drivers struggling to perceive speed (of self and rider up the road) and distance where the differential is huge i.e. on roads with speed limits above 40mph, and being an extra metre or so away from the pseudo hard shoulder on a dual carriageway does nothing to improve visibility.

Firstly, 'roadie conventions' are behaviours which have been established over many years of riding (solo/small groups/large groups) around the lanes, and are as much about public relations as safety; and equally effective for both purposes.

Secondly, I'd never describe a forum ride as employing roadie conventions, because the personnel invovled are far too diverse. If you want to experience roadie conventions, you need to join a club ride.

My point was that because of the way I ride drivers are forced to pass me wide most of the time. If a driver wishes to pass me close, that's fine, as long as they do so slowly. My road position and my looking can in most circumstances control how a driver passes me.

On the ride I am referring to my fellow riders were more tolerant of drivers passing faster and closer than I am used to.

And I'd almost always be going down the secondary position route on a dual carriageway. Primary position would, for the most part, be fucking mental.

Depends. Riding round multi-lane gyratories in London like vauxhall cross, elephant and castle I would rather be in the middle of a lane which is less confusing for everyone, drivers have to slow down to accommodate me.

Even riding on the A406 when it is fast moving I ride in a manner that drivers still have to focus when passing me. I look at them as they pass and if one looks too close I have an escape route to my left

Bus lanes form dual carriageways. I always ride central in a bus lane. Bus Drivers now are trained to pass wide, going into the next lane (though bus drivers rarely overtake nowdays due to my speed)

I rode the stretch of A4 from Hammersmith to Hogarth rndabt recently, in the primary. There was no way I would have felt more safe in the secondary. That stretch is 40mph, two or three lanes, and very congested.

I got hooted by only one car (woman driving urban 4x4, ). I waved thanks as I turned to get eye contact, smile etc. Hooted again. I turned not-so-nice. Stopped dead. Asked why she was hooting. She gestured at the kerb. I gestured to the other two whole lanes she might pass me on.

For some reason I feel the PR effect may not be as negative as you might assume. Perhaps that driver might wonder if cycles are allowed to use the roads 'her road tax pays for'...

^^Point taken - urban dual-carriageways are a world apart from the rest. I don't think the nomenclature really fits the them. Even negotiating 4-lane gyratories in the metropolis feels completely unlike any rural dual-carriageway where cars are doing 70mph, and I'm doing 35-40mph at best (for short sections/probably racing).

BMMF, I bet you ride in the primary position on dual carriageway streets in London a lot. There is very little point in taking the primary position on a major A-road out of town, and certainly not for long distances. There will, however, always be situations even on roads like that when it is advisable to take the primary position for a while, e.g. at junctions.

Depends. Riding round multi-lane gyratories in London like vauxhall cross, elephant and castle I would rather be in the middle of a lane which is less confusing for everyone, drivers have to slow down to accommodate me.

I'm pretty sure that BMMF wasn't referring to that sort of scenario.

Even riding on the A406 when it is fast moving I ride in a manner that drivers still have to focus when passing me. I look at them as they pass and if one looks too close I have an escape route to my left

Yes, but you wouldn't fully take the lane, would you? On most A-roads, I ride further out than most people would, but not in the primary position. For instance, on the A104 Epping New Road, I have to ride further out than I feel comfortable, because someone put an absolutely stupid and counter-productive cycle lane with cat eyes right where I would normally ride.

Bus lanes form dual carriageways.

Er? Did you mean 'multi-lane environments' instead of 'dual carriageway'? A dual carriageway is of course one with some kind of dividing feature between lanes in opposite directions.

@ Skully - I'm talking about PR in the context of club riders using the lanes; our spiritual home, if you will. Singling up is part of the etiquette. Whilst being conducive to safe and considerate shared use in certain scenarios, it's also a way of 'not lording it over motorised intruders'. It's never done as a purely submissive thing.

Ah, cross-posting.

No I wouldn't take the lane (unless the I can match the speed of the traffic stream) on the A406/rural trunk roads as long as I have space to swerve right/left if I encounter a hazard, ie a car doors width either side of me

Yes Oliver- multi lane environments

@ Oliver - yes, I'll take primary on high-speed out-of-town dual-carriageways (is that enough hyphenation for you?) at junctions. For drag-strip TTs, I'll normally be scoping the road behind me from about 1/2 mile before the turn (rdbt), and then getting right across into the centre of the fast lane from up to 1/4 mile before the turn, depending on my speed and stuff. This doesn't stop it being a little frightening at times, and I still favour the sporting courses. Dual-carriageways (in the sense I'm referring to) just don't seem like a bike-friendly environment; rather an unnecessary evil one has to negotiate from time to time.

^ Completely agree.

(is that enough hyphenation for you?)

It's too much--I wouldn't hyphenate 'dual carriageway'.

That's the last time I employ a stylistic device for the sole purpose of making you happy.

I have great difficulty doing any off-road riding or downhill riding (not to mention uphill, which is for reasons other than bike handling), and my reactions are pretty slow.
...Obviously, my bike handling is fine for the kind of riding I do, but I feel that it limits me from certain kinds of riding. I don't mind that much, by the way.

Oliver, off road techniques are a different skill set to the control skills you need on road (with obviously some overlap). Have you ever done a an MTB course? I too was crap off road and vastly improved my off road skills doing a CTC MTB training course with an excellent guy called Ian Warby.

Anyway, lane widths are to some extent a red herring, .

Which is why whenever describing primary position it better to focus on a rider's relationship to the traffic stream rather then suggest judgements in terms of 0.5m here or there

an illustrative example.

I was cycling up towards russel sq from holborn this morning and was in secondary on the 2 lane bit. As I came to crossroads going onto a one lane bit i looked behind, indicated and moved into that lane. I then went to primary in the single lane, and as I approached a pinch point (all of 50m down the road), this skip lorry accelerated behind me such that I had to swerve to the curb and stop before he stormed through. He wasn't stopping, and I was doing 20ish.

I know a revving engine behind you doesn't always mean they are going to plough through you but this guy wasn't stopping.

Of course I passed him almost immediately at the lights, where he quickly wound up his windows.

Just afterwards I was in secondary in the new wide 2 lane road on russel sq and a merc still drove within a foot of me with acres of space on his right.

Can't see what I did wrong here. I'm getting sick of having to anticipate reckless driving all the time. After all that is the point of riding in primary position; to dictate how motorists should drive in certain situations, because some of them are incapable of driving responsibly.

^ i avoid holborn at all costs. I don't know exactly why it happens, but i never feel in control there, even in primary position.

why I struggled recently on a forum ride to follow roadie conventions letting drivers squeeze past on country lanes

It's interesting that you 'load' your perception of not riding in primary on a group ride out of town with the above phrase. I would hazard a guess that in exactly the same scenario I would view cars as merely passing me. I also think it's a bit of a misnomer to project what you see as a drivers perception of a lone rider to that of a group of cyclists

I understand that you think I projected the way I ride olone to riding with that group on the ride.I would expect a driver to pass a group even wider than passing a lone rider as there are additional hazards to group riding since sudden braking of a rider may cause you to swerve.

You weren't there Wayne on the Olympic 1948 ride, I wasn't in primary position most of time but secondary. There were times when people expected me to move further left right on the verge or to double up riding a few centimetres from the person next to me. As I said above, riding in that position is way outside my comfort zone.

I was riding with a small group (of CTUK instructor colleagues) on saturday in the north downs. We rode doubled taking the lane and singled up to secondary when we felt drivers could pass us all. At one point we pulled over to let a couple of driver past. I do not wish to piss off drivers unnecessarliy nor do I feel that I need to let every driver by and manage their potential fustration by looking, smiling thanking driver etc.

Come for a ride with me