Road Danger Reduction

Having arrived back from Copenhagen, I realise why the particular Danish people behave as they do - not because they're danish, but because of the infrastructure and the used of the bicycles.

What I've noticed in Copenhagen is the astounding lack of motorised vehicles, in comparison to London that is, I've rarely ever seen a traffic jam that's equal to London, the people I've spoken to in Copenhagen considered a mere 7-10 cars line-up to be a "bit of a traffic jam" which amused me to no end.

because of the lack of traffic jam; those who chosen to take a motorised vehicles is no longer in a rush as they always get to their destination on time regularly.

because of the above, drivers are fairly relaxed, and are more patient when waiting at a traffic light, in London, drivers are almost always caught at a traffic jam regularly, so when they see an empty road, they tend to gun it during this small section of freedom.

incidentally the same goes to the cyclists, they're rarely ever need to slow down at lots, thus almost a lots of them waited at traffic light, even when there's no motorised vehicles to be seen at all.

I realise I went a bit off topic, but it's pretty clear of the obvious advantage of riding a bicycle, moreso, I've always talked to the car owner about how to make the most out of their cars by merely riding a bicycle, this is a win-win for me as the more I talked about the insurance they saved, the less they spend on petrol, etc. the more they can able to use their vehicles for other scenario, such as a holiday, a weekend break etc. where they'll be able to enjoy driving the cars instead of being stuck in traffic jams.
*
"That sound great! what can I do to achieve that?"

"a bicycle, it's a car's best friend"*

What I've noticed in Copenhagen is the astounding lack of motorised vehicles, in comparison to London that is, I've rarely ever seen a traffic jam that's equal to London,

They also have an astounding lack of 7.5 million people.

It's a smaller city too (close to 2 millions people though) with 36% rode their bicycle, just that percentage make a staggering difference.

Ok, take three roads from my commute, Lyndhurst Way, Adys Road and Lordship Lane.

Which of these is safest, most pleasant to cycle down, and the best example of urban planning, and why?

Why don't you answer that Dammit? I don't know your area that well
A tree lined road with flowers in the verges, with a lower speed limit, with with interesting things to look at, shops and people walking around perhaps may be preferable to more people and encourage cycling.

How would you fit workable cycle lanes in Soho, for example?

You don't... You do what they do in ancient city centers all over the world. Massivly restrict motor vehicle access on some roads and instantly create a usable network.

I would also draw the line at teaching foreigners, but that is just me.

Failed there, already! (perhaps many times over)

Yes yes, but we still have a rather "Moral Majority" gestalt opinion do we not?

Whilst we may argue about bar tape colour and shun people for mixing Shimano and Campag we tend to agree on things like "a blanket 20mph speed limit is good" without actually giving it any thought.

Knee jerk response, as we see it as punishing the car whilst not affecting us- a real case of I'm alright Jack and sod the others.

I'm a little shocked... Damit homework fail.

A great deal of though has been expended on this topic. As far as I am aware the average speed of a car in London is well below 20mph. I am told that this is mainly due to to sheer volume of traffic and the effect of drivers speeding between delays. Rushing to the next tailback is part of the problem as it just grows the tailback faster then it can be relieved. Restricting speed actually will decrease journey times, madly enough, as it would smooth flow. Hitting 40 mph between stationary delays is the current status quo.

A 20mph limit would be far from being "I'm alright Jack and sod the others"... quite the opposite in fact.

There is a major issue of air quality associated with speeding too... a bugbear of mine.

So it's a coincidence that you all sound rabidly anti-motorist then?

Or is that the natural position of any right thinking cyclist?

"Cyclist" and "Motorist" are both meaningless terms. Personally, I am not anti-motorist as this would involve a good degree of self loathing. Without reciting my life story, suffice to say that I have a great deal of experience with "motors" of many sorts and own a big fat family car which I enjoy hauling my big fat family around in from time to time.

I am "Pro Londoner" though... That's why I am revolted by the way we have transformed the built environment to favour motorised transport. It could all be so much better. Working to improve our enviroment doesn't imply being anti anything.

That sort of thing doesn't need any thought given, the speed limit is literally that, if the people tend to ride right at the speed limit (says 30mph), then a 20mph one would mean motorists are likely to stick to it.

It is widely recognised that speed limits don't cause people to drive at these limits. Lower speed limits do reduce speeds, but for a 30mph limit this will mean people driving at around 30-35mph (or, indeed, lower), and similarly around 20mph (although there appears to be a particular issue with 20mph; I don't drive so can't comment, but some people tell me that 20mph sits awkwardly between two gears (is it first and second?) and drivers find it uncomfortable to drive at).

Having arrived back from Copenhagen, I realise why the particular Danish people behave as they do - not because they're danish, but because of the infrastructure and the used of the bicycles.

What I've noticed in Copenhagen is the astounding lack of motorised vehicles, in comparison to London that is, I've rarely ever seen a traffic jam that's equal to London, the people I've spoken to in Copenhagen considered a mere 7-10 cars line-up to be a "bit of a traffic jam" which amused me to no end.

because of the lack of traffic jam; those who chosen to take a motorised vehicles is no longer in a rush as they always get to their destination on time regularly.

because of the above, drivers are fairly relaxed, and are more patient when waiting at a traffic light, in London, drivers are almost always caught at a traffic jam regularly, so when they see an empty road, they tend to gun it during this small section of freedom.

incidentally the same goes to the cyclists, they're rarely ever need to slow down at lots, thus almost a lots of them waited at traffic light, even when there's no motorised vehicles to be seen at all.

I realise I went a bit off topic, but it's pretty clear of the obvious advantage of riding a bicycle, moreso, I've always talked to the car owner about how to make the most out of their cars by merely riding a bicycle, this is a win-win for me as the more I talked about the insurance they saved, the less they spend on petrol, etc. the more they can able to use their vehicles for other scenario, such as a holiday, a weekend break etc. where they'll be able to enjoy driving the cars instead of being stuck in traffic jams.
*
"That sound great! what can I do to achieve that?"

"a bicycle, it's a car's best friend"*

I don't quite understand whether you're arguing here that Copenhagen wins out because of its infrastructure or because of the other factors you cite (or all of them). Did you mean to write 'not because they're Danish, not because of the infrastructure or the use of the bicycles'? It would be interesting to hear more about your experience of Copenhagen.

It's a smaller city too (close to 2 millions people though) with 36% rode their bicycle, just that percentage make a staggering difference.

There are various figures around for Copenhagen. 36%/37% is the figure of commuting by bike, 22%/23% is the overall modal share. See:

http://hembrow.blogspot.com/2009/12/truth-about-copenhagen.html

(I believe that the statistical information in this article is correct, although there is also questionable information on this blog.)

Anyway, this doesn't really have much to do with RDR.

You don't... You do what they do in ancient city centers all over the world. Massivly restrict motor vehicle access on some roads and instantly create a usable network.

There is no need to restrict motor vehicle access that much, but motor vehicle permeability. There is still plenty of access needed, e.g. for deliveries. In fact, it is good if access is maintained but pointless local journeys are strongly discouraged by careful management of permeability.

So it's a coincidence that you all sound rabidly anti-motorist then?

Or is that the natural position of any right thinking cyclist?

Being 'anti-car' (whatever that's supposed to mean) or 'anti-motorist' is extremely stupid and a lose-lose position. Cars are very useful things, but their use has to be carefully managed so that we get the best out of them rather than, as is currently often the case, the worst.

We are all mixed-mode users and none of us are 'motorists' or 'cyclists'. We seek to use the mode of transport most appropriate to our journey. One thing that RDR and other initiatives aim at is giving people a free choice of appropriate mode, which as you know is currently very severely restricted, partly owing to fear of road danger.

I don't drive so can't comment, but some people tell me that 20mph sits awkwardly between two gears (is it first and second?) and drivers find it uncomfortable to drive at).

20mph sits just below the third gear. The third gear is the first "driving gear". Second gear is really just for acceleration. Having driver's driving in the second gear will mean they are able to accelerate most swiftly...

I obey 30kph (18 mph?) when there is possibilities to peds/vehicles entering from behind parked cars etc. I often drive under limit the if limit is 40 kph in that kind of conditions. But if there is a "pointless" 30kph limit with no possibility of people entering the roadway, I drive the slowest speed comfortable with the 3rd gear. To save petrol.

I don't quite understand whether you're arguing here that Copenhagen wins out because of its infrastructure or because of the other factors you cite (or all of them). Did you mean to write 'not because they're Danish, not because of the infrastructure or the use of the bicycles'? It would be interesting to hear more about your experience of Copenhagen.

My apologise, I do often confused my point, I meant to write "not because they're Danish, but because the infrastructure and the use of the bicycles" that allowed a perfect balance between peds, motorised vehicles, and cyclists.

There is no need to restrict motor vehicle access that much, but motor vehicle permeability. There is still plenty of access needed, e.g. for deliveries. In fact, it is good if access is maintained but pointless local journeys are strongly discouraged by careful management of permeability.

Thank you Oliver for that concise definition of exactly what i meant... :-) You are, as ever, the voice of reason.

We've just written this report together with Southwark Living Streets - it may be of interest to people on here: https://southwarkcyclists.org.uk/sites/southwarkcyclists.drupalgardens.com/files/AboutUs/RoadDangerReport-07Mar12.pdf

Sorry, just got to bump this thread.

You're clearly not into thread danger reduction.

"A mantra you can carry about in traffic: when a situation feels dangerous to you, it's probably more safe than you know; when a situation feels safe, that's precisely when you should be on guard"
Tom Vanderbilt
Traffic

Lambeth Council is making a film messaging drivers:
Give cyclists space:
Expect riders in traffic stream at junctions
Expect them to ride in the middle of the lane when avoiding parked cars.

Sometimes riders ride out of cycle lanes when they need to especially while passing side roads.

Naughty drivers in Lambeth will soon be offered an alternative to a £60 fine and 3 points on their licence...

Dr Robert Davis, Road Danger Reduction forum chair talking abour RDR (and helmets) on (at 2: 41) skynews2012lowdefshort

Road danger reduction made simple by yehuda moon
http://yehudamoon.com/10122012/

Enlightened cycle safety campaign targeting drivers in line with RDR principles reported here

A spokesman for Think! said: "Drivers should look out for cyclists, especially when turning.
"They should use their indicators to signal intentions so that cyclists can react.
"They should make sure they give cyclists plenty of space when overtaking them, leaving as much room as would be given to a car.
"If there isn't sufficient space to pass, hold back.
"Remember that cyclists may need to manoeuvre suddenly if the road is poor, if it's windy or if a car door is opened.

(Apart from the usual helmet recommendation crap)

RDRF conference coming up on the 1st November:

https://rdrf.org.uk/2014/09/22/conference-on-road-danger-reduction-and-enforcement-in-london/

Highly recommended.