Orient Express - Cheap Chinese Rims / Wheels / Forks / Frames / Cranks / Etc

but if they're faster than ones without dimples people will pay it

hmm... paying £1500 more for dimples.... hmm...

and a lot of tech that is yet to make its way to the far sports offerings. There's that interesting 303 write-up linked a few pages back that goes into detail about the crazy details that go into zipps. and to focus on £/kg with deep-section carbon is to miss the point a little, the goal (of deep section wheels, not dammits WW build) has always been improved aerodynamics first, weight reduction second, but ending up with a lightweight wheel is a pleasant plus.

^Yarp, the Farsports stuff will always be 2-3 generations (maybe more) behind the latest stuff from Zipp and so on, you pays the money for the latest R&D.

My intention behind my wheels was 90% of the aero advantage of Zipps for 10% of the money, that's ended up being 25% of the money- no idea on the aero bit though.

The focus was never on light weight- that was a pleasant side benefit, and one I could measure myself- I have no home wind tunnel.

yeah fair enough it's a pretty simplistic line of argument - but still, it's going to erode some of their market share

and a lot of tech that is yet to make its way to the far sports offerings. There's that interesting 303 write-up linked a few pages back that goes into detail about the crazy details that go into zipps. and to focus on £/kg with deep-section carbon is to miss the point a little, the goal (of deep section wheels, not dammits WW build) has always been improved aerodynamics first, weight reduction second, but ending up with a lightweight wheel is a pleasant plus.
I would kill for a pair of the newer 303s Well, maybe just save up a bit Actually, killing is more fun.

yeah fair enough it's a pretty simplistic line of argument - but still, it's going to erode some of their market share

The sudden explosion of chinese carbon on club rides and sportives would suggest this is already occurring. But for the most part I wouldn't imagine that those going for the farsports et al. options are customers stolen from Zipp - more those chasing a bit of what the big boys have but unwilling to spring to the cost. and for a £400 set of wheels, I'd much rather have Neils tubs than a boring pair of Mavics. But someone with £2000 to throw at a set of wheels is going to get a £2000 set of wheels, not settle for a product far lower down the food chain.

2008 Zipps are superior to 2011 Farsports. Sod the dimples, it's visible from rim profile and braking surface alone. I feel the trickle down is a little longer than you suggest, but yes, the point is sound. Which is why the Chinese ones are a sound prospect.

zipp lost their patent on profiles recently. AFAIK now the chinese are free to copy as closely as they like.

Perhaps that explains Zipps recent innovations such as the dimples (assuming they managed to patent some small lumps!).

We need rich people to keep buying Zipps... otherwise there is no incentive for innovation from them company.

Zipp lost the patent on the rim profile they had been using for the last x years, but have now moved onto firecrest, which, if their marketing gubbins is to be believed (is it ever?), is vastly superior. so they remain one step ahead. I'm now sounding like a Zipp apologist, which I'm not, but I feel one should appreciate that not all deep section wheels are created equal.

Is the Firecrest design patented?

Bontrager's 36mm rims look very similar.

[edit] I guess the design would contain numerous patents, rather than the whole thing [edit]

Internet says Firecrest isn't patented. Hmm. Whatever, I know nothing about Zipps except that mine make a nice noise as they go round.
/abdicating responsibility and bowing out

Discs win out for wom wom wom though ;)

(My Hed 60s are quite disappointing in the acoustic department, and the trispoke is consistently pleasing. So ends my experience of carbon wheel harmonics. On sound alone, I'd stick with the 808s)

I like how Zipp space the stickers. That is awesome.

#spottertroll.

That spacing is subject to patent- Spotter wisely avoided infringing on that.

correct dammit that was my plan from the start

Were they carbon tags?

...But for the most part I wouldn't imagine that those going for the farsports et al. options are customers stolen from Zipp ....

You're probably correct. But interestingly on WW there's a guy in a team who (at the time I read it) moved on to Chinese carbon rims for his team.

From memory the reasons were;

• he experienced a similar number of failures from the bigger brands as with the Chinese ones,
  
• the turn-around time for replacements (assuming they got replacements) was so long that it was impractical,
  
• the overall cost of so many wheels getting trashed.
  
  

I seem to remember him getting absolutely gunned by a number of people.

His team were racing in crits as I recall, and were trashing a lot of wheels.

That's him.

The thing I thought was interesting is that it sounded like before they were running more expensive wheelsets, rather than just mid-level shimano stuff.

At the end of the day I'd guess no one's going to spend the money on measuring the aero advantage of say Zipps vs Chinese tubs, and without being too cynical if any of the big brands did test them I can't imagine them saying "data shows ours are a bit better, but the gain is negligible in any real world situation".

It'd take a brave magazine who did that sort of test- they'd stand to lose a load of advertising revenue if their tests did indicate that there was not much of a difference.

It's the sort of thing Tour-QTR would do though, in an exactingly dispassionate German fashion. #racist

In fact:

http://www.tour-magazin.de/technik/test_center/komponenten/laufraeder/aero-laufraeder/a10744.html

Although generic Chinese crabon is notably absent.

Has anybody seen any carbon disc only cyclo-x forks in their travels on ta web with a axle to crown about 390-430mm, a rake of around 38mm, weighing 500g-ish?

I want to replace the steel forks (a-c = 440mm, rake = 38mm, weight 1015g) on my MTB for a more commuter friendly light weight carbon, while also dropping the front end a bit, sharpening the handling (current 68deg headtube angle is too slack) and still running a disc up front (would prefer disc only for a cleaner look).

I've seen some good reports about the Trigon MC01 XC carbon monocoque fork that looks good at 495g, a-c = 415mm, but the rake is 48mm. For £120-130 on Ebay.

Is 10mm of rake actually gonna affect the steering that much? And if so, how (sharpen or slacken)?

http://www.woundupcomposites.com/team_x_disc.html

Nice, but as it costs three times the Trigon one, think I might stick with that!

Unless there's any cheap crabon suggestions?