Polo. Seeding: Yes or No?

Also some serious goal keeping/track stand practice is needed.

Get me, EMM and Hyper Allah on that.

Hyper's rocking a freewheel now

Fixed is an advantage, no doubt, but it shouldn't be hard to stand still when you've got a mallet to lean on! And if it is, it's something you really don't need anyone else to practice with!

I think as much as ability, it's inclination to sit in goal. I definitely prefer playing with people who are happy to do their fair turn in goal and play for the team, not for themselves. Dan_LJ was the perfect example of this at the Euros 2010... It's a team game!

I can trackstand anything (bar unicycles)!
Agree with goal tending. I think we should encourage 'you score you go in goal' method again.

How about monthly team games/team games when there are enough people? As jono pointed out about team dynamic, I think this will be good for A and B teams (and C?). Good team awareness is a skill/tatic in itself that we're lacking. If we start playing more as teams it will be easier to adapt your game if players do switch for a tournament.
In the past think the danski/4ndy/hyper line up hasn't gelled (though has serious potential when it does; fenboy3 at london open). I think this has to do with our playing styles being too similar and broad; we all want to be everywhere on the court.

I do think throw ins are essential and benefit the polo community in respective cities.

I agree with everything there, Hyper, but not the score a goal/go in goal thing. Goal-tending needs to be more flexible than that - and I'm not saying people shouldn't come *out *of goal, just that they should know when is a good time and when isn't.

This thread is getting sidetracked though - it's supposed to be about the merits/drawbacks of seeding.

I'll comment on this tomorrow after talking to my pillow.

House sitting turned in to an impromptu party..which itself ended with me booking today off on a very hazy Sunday morning......

Evil.

I voted no. however, even if we decide to scrap seeding as a way of deciding teams, we don't have to scrap it entirely... I know for me that finding out where other people rank my ability gives me huge incentive to improve, on the flip side to this however, it does feel like it's set in stone once the results are in, so again to keep seeding, but not use it for tourneys may not be a bad idea. (would like to hear what others think of this)

Overall I think Birmingham polo as a scene has loads of room to improve...(and this should be seen as an exciting thing not a bad point) As Hyper noted throw-ins are by far the best way to improve individual skill as it allows players to compete with, and against people of varied ability, and again to mouch off Hyper's points we are talking about two seperate things here Birmingham Polo and Tournament Polo. If we have regular teams (that have the capacity to rotate) it shouldn't change the way we play in BHM sessions, except for when major tournaments are approaching...

Seeding and team creation both work in similar ways, if you are good, and show commitment, you will find your way into the better teams. The fundamental difference and the problem I have with seeding is the lack of capacity for alteration, For example with Danski, Hyper and Andy being collectively considered the top three, what would happen if for some reason seeding said that StuF Simple and Lucas (names picked at random) were the top three? Would we all agree that Danski, Hyper and andy shouldn't represent BHM in that tourney? even though in reality they would be stronger? It's a far-fetched idea, but It kind of works.

My suggestion, which has (might have) already been touched on would be for players to be able to choose their teams, then the teams be put into order of their ability (as teams). The best way to do this would be to play each other twice and see who gets the most points, then we could copy this format just before all major tournaments.

On the other points made about our improvement, I think sessions learning certain skills is a must, perhaps if someone thinks they are good at a particular thing (except playing with you left hand) then maybe give a 15 minute lesson about that skill, track stand and knowing when to come out of goal could be examples, or maybe long range shooting, or passing in front of a team mate? I think Sunday mornings would be better for this as on a Wednesday we may lose the court if we don't appear to be playing.

BHM will definitely improve if we keep talking about it. Nice idea setting this up Dan...you the man.

Thanks EMM for taking the time - some well made and considered points there. However, I'm not sure what you mean by this:

The fundamental difference and the problem I have with seeding is the lack of capacity for alteration, For example with Danski, Hyper and Andy being collectively considered the top three, what would happen if for some reason seeding said that StuF Simple and Lucas (names picked at random) were the top three? Would we all agree that Danski, Hyper and andy shouldn't represent BHM in that tourney? even though in reality they would be stronger? It's a far-fetched idea, but It kind of works.

Why would we be stronger? Are you saying we'd be better as a team because we'd have got used to playing together?

I like the idea of skills-training. Hyper has alread linked to the London sub-forum on the other thread. For myself, I try to focus on certain things within games - for example recently I've been trying to focus on long-shooting and better passing (also learning not to use my cheater mallet). Would that work for other people, or is it too informal?

I think there's a lot to be said for solo practice (again, there's a thread on the London forum) for solo things like goalie-practice/trackstanding, dribbling (especially off-side dribbling), and maybe paired practice for all of the above including passing.

Maybe if we were in established teams we could work more on these partnerships away from the main Wed/Sunday games (or before/after when the light gets better).

PS - will someone please explain, to Peter, why Peter got put in the sin bin at the tournament, the only player in the tourny afaik that did :D. We need to do the sin bin stuff too. Make sure people tap, it's the little things that help.. Tesco know this and they're HUGE now...

Pete got sin-binned because he threw his mallet. Accidently dropping it/getting it knocked out of your hand is different from throwing it to save a goal (it was a good goal though). Its viewed that this could lead to mallets being thrown at/in wheels or faces. I feel he was a little un fairly treated their but as you were playing ASBO and the Manc suppoters are always quite vocal its to be expected.

Throwing of mallets will not be tolerated, there's no excuse, instant sin bin (always has been)... sorry Pete.

I think you guys need to spend more time on focusing each others strengths and weaknesses, then build a team around them, rather than seeding players on their all-round ability?
In any sport, its an absolute advantage to have team players who have exceptional abilities in all areas, but there can never be much scope for pregression, as you are always trying to "cover all bases" and in ways, it sounds like you may be plateauing because you are still buidling a team of all rounders...
Maybe you need some specialists - and use that to drive the dynamics somewhere different?
Hope you don't mind a different perspective??

No, your input is totally appreciated.

For me, polo is so quick-moving and dynamic that you can't really play a 'position', although you can obviously mix up people's strengths (andy's fast, fin's good at blocking, I'm supposed to score the goals etc). I think us three are pretty complimentary, maybe a big, fixed lefty would help us though... Damn, that's four players.

As Fin has said, we often trip over oursleves because we're used to being the strongest player on throw-in teams, chasing ever ball, trying to save every goal, make every pass, score every goal etc etc. But that's more to do with throw-in organisation and bringing on newbies than seeding per se.

I'm voting to keep seeding because I think most (if not all) of the points made above are not really about seeding, more our lack of a team practice before tournaments, and the inherent difficulties of having such a mixed-up scene (4 experienced-ish players with 6 newer players...)

However, I'm not massively in favour of seeding, just think it's the least-worst solution and probably the best way of minimising beefs/politics and encouraging newer players to try harder and keep coming out more regularly.

Agreed about pete - I should have been more stringent about mallet throwing. It's sad to say, but we're going to have to watch each other, especially regarding the 'secret' footdowns I've spotted people doing. Ref yourself at throw-ins!

To be fair on Pete I haven't seen him throw his mallet previously so I guess it hasn't come up. The rules is the rules though!

Back on topic - the vote is straight down the middle, unless the remaining people all go one way or the other, this has all been futile. I should have defined a threshold which would trigger change before doing the vote, I guess... As it is, we know half the people are unhappy, but is that enough to change the way we do things?

You can't have happiness for all, 50% happy* is pretty good

*Like most relationships.

Cast my vote, lost of different and very valid points.

But mine has been thought through, and for me a team that gels well wins hands down.

No offence intended here, but if you have the best players and they do not gel as a unit, its useless.

I say throw ins and team play practice as pointed out earlier, that would be a good idea, plus solo practice, I'm up for that, make use of early Friday finishes and a court 5 mins away.

Some very interesting points brought up here, seems birmingham bike polo has a hell of a lot to think about.

• Knock knock - can i come in *
  
  

Firstly, about the mallet throwing if i may (briefly). It might sound like it was a throw that Tessa Sanderson would be proud of, but i dont think in that split second i really meant to do it. I tried to shuffle (Lucas' odd) mallet handle a bit while hoping, in vain, to do a Stretch Armstrong. T'was a good save though and given it was the worst team playing the best team, i didn't expect such fame / shame from the incident.

Also i have done it before ...but will never do it again.

And onto seeding.

I don't see there's any harm in doing it - as it contributes to the inter person competitive spirit among competitive people but i'm not sure that in reality it would have a lot of bearing on tournament places / selection.

As a pretty uncompetitive type myself perhaps there could be the method by which people can lower themselves in the ranking throughout the 'season'. I happen to think that Matt is better than i am, so if 2 or 3 agree, then lets swap places. Could such 'friendly seeding' work or does that mess up the whole ethos? If seedings were used to determine tourny attendance, i wouldn't expect Matt to miss out in favour of me.

So, to close, i vote to keep seeding and when it comes to Tourny time, see who (of the better class of player) can make it and take it from there. Then let Dan decide :)

Ah yes, following 2S's point, it's the teamliness of the team that will win matches, rather than the draw of names in bands of three at any particular time. From the experience at the weekend, those that play together a lot, win together a lot.

'off topic' drop your drill back Friday Mr..

'on topic' if your do not playing with people and you do not mesh, forget it.

I think the newer players including myself, have a hell of a lot to learn before that is even considered. I dont think peoples true strengths and weaknesses have blossomed yet.

Easy to learn, hard to master......

All good points above. Pete, don't feel bad about throwing/fumbling your mallet. Newer teams often make a few mistakes at their first tournaments.

For me, the biggest problem remains how to organise team practice:

This is the list for wednesday

1:2Squeak
2:danwentskiing
3:dan_lj
4: EMM
5: hyper
6: n3il

There isn't a full Black Stabbath - who do me and Fin play with? Say Dan_LJ and EMM have formed a team with Lucas... Who do they play with? Say another person joins (Rob for example) - he doesn't get to play? Seems impossible to me, without excluding people and/or mixing it up every week to the point of pointlessness....

i think we should go with the flow and let things pan out, if you think too hard about something it will always be a mess!!

I sense a lot of frustration about our performance in Cambridge, chill peeps, early days.

THIS is the list for wednesday

1:2Squeak
2:danwentskiing
3:dan_lj
4: EMM
5: hyper
6: n3il
7: SpeedyP + birthday beers and 6 plastic cups

This

i think we should go with the flow and let things pan out,

does not work.

My concerns and theoretical problem is why we've never done team practice before - it will discourage new players/people not in teams from coming out, drive down turnouts and won't even succeed in what it aims to do, because we there's always a few people missing/late/broken-biked.

This

... birthday beers and 6 plastic cups
is an excellent idea.