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^^^ oh fuck off.
the "middle class" are the engine of economic success in any country. go reread marx and stop spinning this working class hero nonsense. fuck the middle classes and it all goes tits up.(scuze the vehemence and bad language, but seriously dude)
was that at me? you misread. i am very middle class, and i'm not saying fuck the middle class.
the truth is that the current tuition fee structure represents a subsidy to the middle class, and they're the folks who don't need it. it's an inefficient use of tax payers' money.
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i blame the people who bought 1 Series BMW's on credit
ran up £10,000 on their credit cards
thats where the debt has come from
banks only provided the outlets for the cash
it was the people who borrowed the moneyfair do's but it was the banks that decided to make borrowing much easier, and without due diligence as to whether either individuals or institutions could pay it back. Gordon Brown admitted that deregulating the banks was a mistake as it is an inevitability that if you open the till the money will walk out the door...
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yup - i was there too mate. and what makes you think it's not still going on? the protesting i mean? been down parliament lately?
on a side note - the way these legitimate protests always get hijacked by the fkn SWP and thier ilk is fucking annoying to say the least
I wouldn't underestimate the SWP. Away from the shouting and placard waiving they are generally the real activists; it was the SWP that pretty much drove the BNP out of the isle of dogs, for example, by years of grassroots organising and campaigning.
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i blame the people who bought 1 Series BMW's on credit
ran up £10,000 on their credit cards
thats where the debt has come from
banks only provided the outlets for the cash
it was the people who borrowed the moneyand the banks playing a global game of 'pass the parcel' knowing full well that when the music stopped, the shit would start to stick had cock all to do with it?
disingenuous point is disingenuous.
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" mattty - well, it was aimed at your comment. aiming it at you would be an ad hominem attack and contrary to the rules of debate.
but yeah, dont reduce subsidies to the middle classes. the middle classes are not som epriviliged elite. generallly they are conservative entrepenuerial types who place value on self sufficiency (yes, subsidies would seem to run cotrary to this).
other than self employed tradesmen, it's the middle classes who are in the best position to generate "wealth" and employment through their setting up of new business vebtures - "capitalism".to be clear - lets NOT confuse these class categorisations with notions of accent, regional extraction, what boarding school one went to etc. those are defunct definitions of class.
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That's assuming this radical change was not accompanied by any others; what if the parents' tax arrangements were altered too so that the money they now pay in school fees was instead taken in tax and hypothecated for state education? And what capital costs would there be if the existing private schools were simply transferred to state ownership? I am sure there are many local working class kids who would suddenly flourish were Eton to become their local state school.
oh and perhaps a little levy on re-insurance would raise some funds too? ;)Taking your points in turn:
what if the parents' tax arrangements were altered too so that the money they now pay in school fees was instead taken in tax and hypothecated for state education?
Some very wealthy people send their children to state schools and use the money saved to pay for holiday homes in Tuscany or whereever. If private schools were abolished, it would be impossibnle to determine who would have sent their kids to private or state schools.
[B][I] And what capital costs would there be if the existing private schools were simply transferred to state ownership?***
[/I][/B]
An interesting idea; nationalisation without compensation. It has never been tried here or in any other democracy. Mugabe and Stalin were very much in favour. Not something that will fly in a hurry.
[B][I]I am sure there are many local working class kids who would suddenly flourish were Eton to become their local state school. ***
[/I][/B]
You are not alone in this thought. Eton has declared its intention to be a free school in the foreseeable future open to anyone who is good enough. Eton is fortunate to have huge resources. Other independent schools are much poorer but are seeking ways to spread the intake of pupils and increase academic standards. To achieve this, significant funding would be required. There is however, always the question of uptake. There are already schemes for assisted places. Take up is limited. Many so-called "working class" families, do not want their kids to board.
[B][I]oh and perhaps a little levy on re-insurance would raise some funds too?***
[/I][/B]
Reinsurance is specifically and necessarily excluded from Insurance Premium Tax. The reason is that if a levy were to be taken, reinsurance business would not come to London and a whole industry would be lost to the competition from Zurich, Bermuda and Munich. By keeping London as the international centre for reinsurance, considerable invisible exports occur and a huge amount of tax is collected by way of other taxes such as income tax, corporation tax and vat.
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The previous labour government!
The deficit left by labour is actually smaller than the one left by the Tories the last time around, something the Tories are not keen to recognise and Ed Milliband pointed out in his first appearance at PM questions.
Yes, Labour made mistakes-huge ones-but they also had to deal with a global financial crisis and made huge efforts to reform schools, healthcare, education and generally invest in people. I don't like Labour much but at least their economic understanding goes further than Tory slash n' burn and their social commitment is tangible
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" mattty - well, it was aimed at your comment. aiming it at you would be an ad hominem attack and contrary to the rules of debate.
but yeah, dont reduce subsidies to the middle classes. the middle classes are not som epriviliged elite. generallly they are conservative entrepenuerial types who place value on self sufficiency (yes, subsidies would seem to run cotrary to this).
other than self employed tradesmen, it's the middle classes who are in the best position to generate "wealth" and employment through their setting up of new business vebtures - "capitalism".to be clear - lets NOT confuse these class categorisations with notions of accent, regional extraction, what boarding school one went to etc. those are defunct definitions of class.
I broadly agree with what you're saying, but I stand by my point.
Subsidising tuition is an inefficient way of fostering innovation in business - tax breaks for new businesses is a more direct way of achieving this goal.
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The money allocated by central government to universities will be cut from £3.2 billion per annum to £600 million.
My other half works for a university and they expect their funding to be cut by at least 75%.Substantial. I see.
I had a quick look at it appears Aus spends about £3bil annually now (Howard government up to '07/08), for 1/3rd the population.
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I wouldn't underestimate the SWP. Away from the shouting and placard waiving they are generally the real activists; it was the SWP that pretty much drove the BNP out of the isle of dogs, for example, by years of grassroots organising and campaigning.
I'm not sure I belive this. What would the SWP have been doing on the Isle of Dogs?
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I'm not sure I belive this. What would the SWP have been doing on the Isle of Dogs?
+1 (well, not that SWP, the other one!)
The SWP and their ANL style of anti-fascism had very little impact in deprived workign class areas if you compare them to the decades of street campaigning and confrontation by AFA, the Asian Youth Networks etc.
Anyway, usually it is the SWP (or any similar vanguardist socialists for that matter) who hijack genuinely powerful grassroots campaigns, turn them into recruiting platforms, alienate the majority, and ruin chances of success. (see, for e.g. Stop the War)
Protests can have an effect if they are combined with a) wide-scale support b) workplace and/or community organisation and campaigning and c) localised direct action / civil disobedience in workplaces and/or communities.
see, for e.g. the anti-Poll tax movement. This combined these different elements of popular politics (mostly, incidentally, on a broadly socialistic class politics but largely independent of, or bigger than, particular parties). The Poll Tax thing was so powerful because it was largely independent, broad-based, well-organised, massive, and fucking angry.
This UCU/NUS protest may have some impact, but it would have to be the catalyst for much, much bigger movements with much more sophisticated and varied tactics, less top-down control by largely self-appointed leaders, and a lorry load of passion.
Frankly, i'm not convinced it will have an effect. Students are usually happy to turn up to protests but when it comes to taking control of their own struggles and developing campaigns and alternatives then they often falter. (Speaking as someone who was a student for 8 years and now teaches students!)
I will be on the
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Frankly, i'm not convinced it will have an effect. Students are usually happy to turn up to protests but when it comes to taking control of their own struggles and developing campaigns and alternatives then they often falter. (Speaking as someone who was a student for 8 years and now teaches students!)
I will be on the
Did you just falter there, by any chance? ;)
Balki
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mattty
andy.w
cliveo
hippy
mmccarthy
bq
ftony
Oliver Schick-
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About
Stop the Cuts - National Demonstration
Posted by
@Tenderloin
^^^ oh fuck off.
the "middle class" are the engine of economic success in any country. go reread marx and stop spinning this working class hero nonsense. fuck the middle classes and it all goes tits up.
(scuze the vehemence and bad language, but seriously dude)