Stop the Cuts - National Demonstration

the fact that this thread has turned into a foodie thread just says all you need to know about the world today.

/mmmm tasty irony

+1 (well, not that SWP, the other one!)

The SWP and their ANL style of anti-fascism had very little impact in deprived workign class areas if you compare them to the decades of street campaigning and confrontation by AFA, the Asian Youth Networks etc.

Anyway, usually it is the SWP (or any similar vanguardist socialists for that matter) who hijack genuinely powerful grassroots campaigns, turn them into recruiting platforms, alienate the majority, and ruin chances of success. (see, for e.g. Stop the War)

Protests can have an effect if they are combined with a) wide-scale support b) workplace and/or community organisation and campaigning and c) localised direct action / civil disobedience in workplaces and/or communities.

see, for e.g. the anti-Poll tax movement. This combined these different elements of popular politics (mostly, incidentally, on a broadly socialistic class politics but largely independent of, or bigger than, particular parties). The Poll Tax thing was so powerful because it was largely independent, broad-based, well-organised, massive, and fucking angry.

This UCU/NUS protest may have some impact, but it would have to be the catalyst for much, much bigger movements with much more sophisticated and varied tactics, less top-down control by largely self-appointed leaders, and a lorry load of passion.

+1

All turned into a punch-up anyway. Massive fail?

i blame the people who bought 1 Series BMW's on credit
ran up £10,000 on their credit cards
thats where the debt has come from
banks only provided the outlets for the cash
it was the people who borrowed the money

Your average worker running up a debt of £10,000 is small fry compared to the unimaginable sums the banks gambled away on subprime ponzi schemes.

Besides, when you can't afford to pay for your BMW your bank takes you car away. When your bank can't afford to pay its debt then you end up paying for it for them. Doesn't quite add up does it?

All turned into a punch-up anyway. Massive fail?

Hard to say. A couple of broken windows hardly compares to the widespread dismantling of the education system and the welfare state. However, whilst this may finally show the level of anger amongst people over the cuts and pave the way for future bigger demonstrations the point of todays demonstration will be largely ignored and glossed over in favour of a healthy dose of Daily Mail moralising.

Yeah, but the education system has been piss-poor for years, even during the boom. As has the welfare state - not delivering to the genuinely needy (c.f. child poverty, pensioners etc). For me, it's all gone May-Day, i.e. as soon as you start trashing shite, you've lost the legitimacy of your publicity.

the point of todays demonstration will be largely ignored and glossed over in favour of a healthy dose of Daily Mail moralising.

What if they just protested peacefully and didn't act like mongs?

People who bought those BMWs on HPs actually bought products which were produced by some workers, who got paid for it. Both paid taxes. HPs bare high interest anyway.

You can't blame the working class and the students who live on credit for the whole bloody crisis.
Besides the fact, that even if I owe £10k on my credit cards, it's nothing when compared with some people who have on average 1 mil mortgage. Or, for that matter, with some banks bailed out by the taxpayer.

For me, it's all gone May-Day, i.e. as soon as you start trashing shite, you've lost the legitimacy of your publicity.

Just remember that you deal with the Tories here. This is the language they understand, as they don't tend to listen to common people.
I really hope there will be another Poll-tax riot just to prove them wrong.

Re debt. Good for society if it's being serviced by the lendee, with all that entails. Bad otherwise.

If there're more poll tax riots, it won't prove them wrong, it will just provide a legitimate excise for the moderate majority not to acknowledge.

Steak eaten, news watched.

Can't help but feel disgusted watching politicians justify dismantling the education system after they themselves have had their education for free, if not partially subsidised by the taxpayer, and feel its suddenly wrong for young people to expect the same in return.

I myself don't welcome living in a society that places no value on arts, humanities, social sciences, and thinks that future generations have to shoulder the failings of the greedy thatcherites that have raped our country of its industries, local communities, education, national resources, national enterprises, and presided over a wholesale meltdown that rewards people by the million for fucking up in the first instance.

I think the 'moderate majority' is universally disgusted with our financial system, hateful of the tories, and fearful for the future so out to save themselves-if they see the students fucking up tory plans to take a wrecking ball to yet more public infrastructure they'll be quite happy.

But then I'm part of the generation that has apparently 'unrealistic expectations' is 'badly educated' 'complacent' and has no real job prospects to look forward to, so who gives a fuck what i think anyway.

If there're more poll tax riots, it won't prove them wrong, it will just provide a legitimate excise for the moderate majority not to acknowledge.

If you push and push people, then they will snap t some point.
Moderate majority is not a decisive one anymore, because nothing can stop the street when it's ready to riot.

I don't condone violence nor take any part in it, but understand that it's an important part of democracy - you can't shut people up only because you're a public school educated, selfish, privileged white chap with a trust fund set up by your grandpa who dealt in sugar cane.

This is how we did in the 80s (and how the world found out about our case), this is how they roll in Greece right now.
I mean, history will look better if there's a mention of student riots against the Tory cuts than a mention of a tiny little sob somewhere in the campus of University of East London, because Lee from Plaistow wanted to become a scientist, but couldn't afford it, so we went back home to sell crack like all of his mates.

Yes, but we are where we are. As much as folk might share your views on all that you espouse, the fact is the Mr Brown over the years shafted the national bank balance up the arse with a barge pole wrapped in barbed wire. Something must be done, sadly. Mr Cameron et al have the deeply unenviable task of doing that. Smashing up central London isn't going to change, or aid, that task.

if Lee from Plaistow wants to become a scientist, nothing is stopping him. It will just be expensive now, so Lee from Plaistow better make sure that's what he really wants to do. I think there are many people studying now because they don't know what else to do, and many people with a degree and a job that doesn't require one

People in other countries pay (more than proposed by our government) for their education, I don't think higher education is an entitlement, especially when, as bigtwin pointed out, we are quite fucked finacially

What if they just protested peacefully and didn't act like mongs?

They wouldn't get any media coverage. There have been a number of very large scale protests against things this coalition government is doing and they have been pretty much ignored in the media. If the breakaway hadn't happened today this would have been right down the news agenda, now it's been lead story since early afternoon.

People in other countries pay (more than proposed by our government) for their education, I don't think higher education is an entitlement, especially when, as bigtwin pointed out, we are quite fucked finacially

People in other countries often pay nothing, yes - nothing.
The difference is, you can't just go and enroll on the course, you have to pass an exam to get there. To study for my degree there was 12:1 candidates, so you'd have to prove yourself before you waste taxpayers money.

The other thing - introducing major science cuts and at the same allowing universities to charge as much as they wish? This is a class war waged against common people (and a war against common sense).

I think there are many people studying now because they don't know what else to do, and many people with a degree and a job that doesn't require one

Your point is as sound as a pound (used to be). And filter that down to the massive industry in selling totally unnecessary courses in everything from Health and Safety Compliance to Self Analysis Evaluation Form Completion (my wife is a school governor, I'm not making that up).

All utter bullshit "qualifications" that add nothing and cost plenty. This is endemic.

I think there are many people studying now because they don't know what else to do, and many people with a degree and a job that doesn't require one

I wouldn't blame young people.

Blame governments for telling them, that they should go to the Uni to study on some trendy funky course etc.

Promote skills! Promote apprenticeship! Don't pour money into local "ghetto" projects to train people as music producers, filmmakers, directors and actors/models. Teach them carpentry.

Yep, young people have been sold up the river. They're going to suffer more from these cuts than just about any other single group. If I was a bit younger I'd be really pissed off too.

I wouldn't blame young people.

Blame governments for telling them, that they should go to the Uni to study on some trendy funky course etc.

Promote skills! Promote apprenticeship! Don't pour money into local "ghetto" projects to train people as music producers, filmmakers, directors and actors/models. Teach them carpentry.

This is truth. Expectation management is crucial. How odd is the juxtaposition between X-Factor and Ba (hons) in media (delete and insert at will) degrees. One is the recognition that happenstance fame (or talent, if I am less cynical in mood) is your only chance (reality TV?) the other is a world of pointless fantasy. Swap them - it works.

Yep, young people have been sold up the river. They're going to suffer more from these cuts than just about any other single group. If I was a bit younger I'd be really pissed off too.

And the parents. I have 2 kids. And 5 worthless pensions, and an overbearing expectation that I will, substantially at least, fund their tertiary education. Some hope.

Yes, but we are where we are. As much as folk might share your views on all that you espouse, the fact is the Mr Brown over the years shafted the national bank balance up the arse with a barge pole wrapped in barbed wire. Something must be done, sadly. Mr Cameron et al have the deeply unenviable task of doing that. Smashing up central London isn't going to change, or aid, that task.

This is the kind of nonsense that people who turn a blind eye to genocide believe.

Brown de-regulated the banks to popular acclaim, fuelling economic growth of over 5%, no-one complained. This helped fund increases in NHS, underinvested public infrastructure and social reform spending.

What Brown expected when he slackened banking regulation is that they would be responsible in their own activities and respect FSA supervision.

What he got was unabrided greed and irresponsibility from the very people who begged for greater control over their affairs and the entire world economy being put at risk by greedy, suited wankers who care about nothing beyond their own gains and the bottom line.

No-one could have expected abuses of this kind and on such a mad scale, now we have to suck on the end of it-Mr Cameron would be much better directing his attentions to reforming these institutions and making sure they pay for the damage they've done instead of letting it be business as usual, their spending policies are short sighted beyond belief and will do more to damage our economy than just taxing the banks.

And the parents. I have 2 kids. And 5 worthless pensions, and an overbearing expectation that I will, substantially at least, fund their tertiary education. Some hope.

Just to clarify, I meant sold up the river by the coalition. Not Labour.

It is, and it's not. No, not everyone can be the next X-Factor winner.

But our creative industries are the only industry which has seen significant jobs growth in the last 5 years. Do you know what percentage jobs growth there has been in the financial industry? In real terms? 0%.

Our education system needs massive reform to prepare our young people for careers in the 21st century. We can't even imagine the jobs that children born today will be doing when they reach career age.

We blindly follow an industrialised model of education which has changed little since the industrial revolution, and our education system crushes the creativity out of children who think school is boring because the lessons are boring and they are made to learn a load of facts and repeat back the 'correct answer' in standardised tests. If they rebel and don't behave we drug them with ritalin. Instead of teaching them to think for themselves, we bore them and stick to a misguided dogma of academic ability = success.

Our creative industries employ 1.8 million people (one million directly), and generate more ‘cultural goods’ for export (worth $8.5 billion in 2002) than any other nation in the world.

Anyone who thinks the answer is the '3 Rs' and a return to good old fashioned teaching is talking utter bollocks.

This is truth. Expectation management is crucial. How odd is the juxtaposition between X-Factor and Ba (hons) in media (delete and insert at will) degrees. One is the recognition that happenstance fame (or talent, if I am less cynical in mood) is your only chance (reality TV?) the other is a world of pointless fantasy. Swap them - it works.

This is the kind of nonsense that people who turn a blind eye to genocide believe.

No-one could have expected abuses of this kind and on such a mad scale,

Well, that's 2 things about which you are wrong, via-a-vis me anyway.