Stop the Cuts - National Demonstration

For the record, again, 18k is the amount MORE a student is being asked to pay. Not the total cost. Total cost is closer to 27k.

Also, I can't be bothered to run in circles with Tynan any more. I've made my point, and I believe I'd made it clear for anyone to read. The students are getting a bum deal, they're pissed off about it. Just like other people would be. They are not horrible little greedy monsters that should shut up and do what they're told.

I don't think fees are going up by 9000 squids a year, just up to 9000 squids...

I've read bits and bobs of this and I'm pretty sure allot of the points I'd like to make have been well covered.

One positive I can see from all of this is that less people will go to uni. This has 2 benefits; 1) less over-crowding and a therefore a better service; and 2) more people will go to university later on, or part time. Possibly funded by employers, who will hopefully demand courses that actually fit their needs. University was largely wasted on me and I don't think I was the exception (I know lots use it to it's fullest and that is great). I think I would have got a lot more out of it now. And I remember the mature students...well being allot more mature.

On a couple of anecdotal points, I thought it was interesting chatting to my boss who went in the late 90s. He took loans out on the basis that £5k as a 20yo was a shit load of 'fun-money' in purchasing power, where as when he'd made lots of money and had no free time even interest adjusted it wouldn't buy that much. An Ozzy friend was very irate about the whole thing, saying that we didn't know how good we had it and we should stop bitching and HTFU. A US intern who is on a huuuuge scholarship estimated his fee's without the scholarship would knock on £80k, and would not have gone to his college.

i said it before but i'll say it again, all of those "greater than" signs are the wrong way around except the bottom one which correctly reads less than 10,000. for example 10,000>19,999 reads 10,000 is greater that 19,999 which of course it's not. it should be 10,000<19,999 and similarly for the rest.

They aren't being used as inequalities in this context, but to show a range. Blame Velocio, it's his data.

For the record, again, 18k is the amount MORE a student is being asked to pay. Not the total cost. Total cost is closer to 27k.

I don't think fees are going up by 9000 squids a year, just up to 9000 squids...

Exactly. This is my point. Do les maths.

People were reporting 18k as if that was the tuition total. They were about 10k/a third off. Not an insignificant amount, and something which I thought should be redressed.

You are right! My maths fail....

They aren't being used as inequalities in this context, but to show a range. Blame Velocio, it's his data.

they're wrong for the same reason then anyway. there is no numbers in the range 10,000>19,999

No, they just mean "between".

I've read bits and bobs of this and I'm pretty sure allot of the points I'd like to make have been well covered.

One positive I can see from all of this is that less people will go to uni. This has 2 benefits; 1) less over-crowding and a therefore a better service; and 2) more people will go to university later on, or part time. Possibly funded by employers, who will hopefully demand courses that actually fit their needs. University was largely wasted on me and I don't think I was the exception (I know lots use it to it's fullest and that is great). I think I would have got a lot more out of it now. And I remember the mature students...well being allot more mature.

On a couple of anecdotal points, I thought it was interesting chatting to my boss who went in the late 90s. He took loans out on the basis that £5k as a 20yo was a shit load of 'fun-money' in purchasing power, where as when he'd made lots of money and had no free time even interest adjusted it wouldn't buy that much. An Ozzy friend was very irate about the whole thing, saying that we didn't know how good we had it and we should stop bitching and HTFU. A US intern who is on a huuuuge scholarship estimated his fee's without the scholarship would knock on £80k, and would not have gone to his college.

I agree this is a positive in some ways, but it just means that the poeple from poor families aren't going, instead of it becoming more elitist.

Also, I can't be bothered to run in circles with Tynan any more. I've made my point, and I believe I'd made it clear for anyone to read. The students are getting a bum deal, they're pissed off about it. Just like other people would be. They are not horrible little greedy monsters that should shut up and do what they're told.

Is there a limit to how many straw men are allowed on one thread, surely there is the fire hazard to think about ?

For the record, again, 18k is the amount MORE a student is being asked to pay. Not the total cost. Total cost is closer to 27k.

Also, I can't be bothered to let Tynan use me for his own propaganda any more. I've made my point, and I believe I'd made it clear for anyone to read. The students are getting a bum deal, they're pissed off about it. Just like other people would be. They are not horrible little greedy monsters that should shut up and do what they're told.

Excellent!

No, they just mean "between".

i know what they mean, that's just not what it says. it's such a small thing to change i just it should be right.

By all means, feel free. An admirable dedication to semantics.

i'm a mathematician :)

Is there a limit to how many straw men are allowed on one thread, surely there is the fire hazard to think about ?

Seriously? shakes head Are we now going to move onto ad hominem attacks?

That depends on whether demand is likely to outstrip supply. Free market forces will have a hand in this after all.

The mechanism that pushes prices upwards artificially as a function of uncertainty over quality is predicated on there being an imbalance in knowledge*- the seller knows more about the quality of the product than the buyer, and is incentivised to keep the price high as an indicator of the quality.

However, the quality of a degree course is transparent(ish), and comparable to competing degree courses.

• i.e. The Market for Lemons
  
  

That's well argued, but there are plenty of other reasons why this new market might not work too well. The guardian picks out a few. I'll also note that you'll have some very weird incentives operating on students: if they are planning a relatively high earning career then they'll have an incentive to pick a cheaper degree so they finish paying their loan off earlier *, but if they are aiming for a low paid public service life they might as well get onto the most expensive course they can...

In the right circumstances markets can be excellent systems for efficiently organising cooperative effort, but they can also be played like fruit-machines or twisted in into engines of chaos and destruction.

• students might have the information judge degree quality at the time they pick, but they'll struggle to judge what message having picked a cheap degree will send to employers years later.
  
  

...
I hate the way it's been packaged up - the fee-paying mechanism and amount, bundled with a change in principle in how HE is funded. So any and every discussion can be derailed.

And (extent of) youth services and FE cuts are just plain wrong.

This. Too much effort and credibility has been wasted opposing straw-men misinterpretations of the financial impact on students, when we should have been focusing on the university-side impacts. It may be complex to the point of incomprehensibility*, possibly by design, but even the confusion is a good reason to oppose and fear the change.

*well, the more i look into it, the less i understand.

One positive I can see from all of this is that** less** people will go to uni.

Fewer.

Let that be a less-than to you.

(get in there before Oliver)

i know what they mean, that's just not what it says. it's such a small thing to change i just think (?) it should be right.

i'm a mathematician :)

I think that's pretty obvious...these are such small things to change :]

Seriously? shakes head Are we now going to move onto ad hominem attacks?

Seriously head remains still

For me these kinds of discussions are too bogged down with things no one has said or argued for.

i said it before but i'll say it again, all of those "greater than" signs are the wrong way around except the bottom one which correctly reads less than 10,000. for example 10,000>19,999 reads 10,000 is greater that 19,999 which of course it's not. it should be 10,000<19,999 and similarly for the rest.

It may be crap notation, but you're obviously meant to see the > as an arrow and read it as 'to', so the whole label reads as a range. Replace the > with < and it still wouldn't make sense as a label. 10,000<your income<20,000 might appease you but would be rather unwieldy.

Seriously head remains still

For me these kinds of discussions are too bogged down with things no one has said or argued for.

This is absolutely true. Discussions will often morph into something else completely, with two people still taking their sides, even though they never meant to argue about such-and-such thing, and may not even believe what they've been led to argue about. This cool little trick is often used by people on purpose. Most famous of them was Socrates. Because of it, he got the reputation of a gadfly and was put to death by Athens. In this situation, you're reminding me a bit of a gadfly, Tynan.

This type of directed (or accidentally directed) argument is exactly what I'm trying to stop from happening with you. I have repeated my argument many times now. You have repeated yourself just as many times, but what you have repeated is "I don't think the comparison stands." I have explained why the comparison works for me in this particular case (as an example to be used in a thought experiment to garner insights into the existential reaction in an individual. and whether students are distinct from the rest of the population in their reactions). You counter by saying, "I don't think the comparison stands." You want to make it an argument about something else. Something about optionality, re-payment schemes, value-for-money ideas. Fair enough. Have that argument. But you're not going to have it with me.

You want to make it an argument about something else.

No, really, let's leave out 'gadflies' and 'Socrates' and 'Middle England' and 'value-for-money ideas' and 'greedy little monsters' . . . and all the rest, I just don't think you can compare tuition fees with our hypothetical 18k demand.

An up front 18k demand is not the same as an 18k amount amortised over many years. Rationally of course they're the same (given a suitable adjustment for interest and inflation), they're perceieved different as often you wouldn't have the cash today.

[QUOTE=horatio;1835447]
Also, I can't be bothered to run in circles with Tynan any more. I've made my point, and I believe I'd made it clear for anyone to read. The students are getting a bum deal, they're pissed off about it. Just like other people would be. They are not horrible little greedy monsters that should shut up and do what they're told.

Is there a limit to how many straw men are allowed on one thread, surely there is the fire hazard to think about ?[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't lightly dismiss that as a straw man. It took me a while to realise it, but i think that is horatio's main point from the last few pages: that it's reasonable for students to protest given what they see as happening to them. It's unfortunate he argued the toss with you over just how big their debt will be when i think it makes more sense to argue on how they perceive the change (accurate or not), or let it go and pick the more serious effects he'd mentioned earlier (just how big a funding cut this is, etc).