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You realise all your reasoning is aimed towards absolving humans of any responsibility. That's a very depressing view.
Mick does this all the time. He also pretends that the worst manmade abuses of human senses are great so as to absolve us of blame. I'd rather take the blame than the blare. ;)
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I'm sad that we lost the dodo.
I think the tendency in favour of megafauna is understandable, as I think (but I'm not a biologist, so tell me off if not true) unless it's human it tends to be more vulnerable to extinction (smaller number of individuals and so forth).
Lots of easy things everyone can do (waste less, drive less, fly less, go vegan, sort out the house, etc.) but ultimately the responsibility must lie with governments--what individuals can do is all very fine, and important in its own right, but the big picture is still (for how much longer?) controlled by governments.
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lots of easy things everyone can do (waste less, drive less, fly less, go vegan, sort out the house, etc.) but ultimately the responsibility must lie with governments--what individuals can do is all very fine, and important in its own right, but the big picture is still (for how much longer?) controlled by governments.
+1 000 000
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I'm sad that we lost the dodo.
I think the tendency in favour of megafauna is understandable, as I think (but I'm not a biologist, so tell me off if not true) unless it's human it tends to be more vulnerable to extinction (smaller number of individuals and so forth).
Lots of easy things everyone can do (waste less, drive less, fly less, go vegan, sort out the house, etc.) but ultimately the responsibility must lie with governments--what individuals can do is all very fine, and important in its own right, but the big picture is still (for how much longer?) controlled by governments.
I'm no biologist either but I think that this argument doesn't really work as a lot of the less photogenic and equally endangered microfauna depend on very specific and minuscule habitats in which to survive (weird underground cave systems, deepsea vents, or the intestines of equally endangered mega-fauna). This is obviously also true of both the dodo and of the above bird, but animals like the panda and so on, less so I think.
If it's a question of biodiversity, then the parasites that live on and in the black rhino, for instance, represent a far greater aggregate loss than the rhino itself. Perhaps.
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Isn't this an example of the charismatic megafauna debate - that big 'cute' animals get all the attention/fudning for conservation schemes whilst ugly little snails and worms and shit are ignored and wiped out all the time, with no one batting an eyelid. Why is this duck worth more than some horrible infectious hookworm or whatever?
(PS: I think it's sad that this duck has died out. But not that sad.)
I was thinking something very similar wrt the recent bus crash 2 young girls sadly died, the pretty one got all the attention
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Originally it was, as I can't be bothered getting into one of these arguments again.
Then I got thinking, why is it not natural? People use the word natural all the time, when it comes to food that particularly gets me, but that's another topic. If one species starts wiping out another species and they become extinct as a result, is that natural? If the impact of species like lions, sharks etc. on an ecosystem is natural, why is man's impact not natural? We're animals at the end of the day. We're just another species that will live for a tiny period on this planet like all the other species that have lived and died out beforehand.
Why is man's impact not natural. Well in a way you're right, we are doing what comes naturally to us and that in itself is a fair point. Thus the arguments that have been made against your opinion haven't been that well laid out and frankly a bit too reactionary and handwringing for my liking.
Oliver says that he's sad that we lost the Dodo. As a staunch left-wing environmentalist I can say hand on heart that I'm not that sad about it. Just like I'm not that sad about the loss of the wooly mammoth, the sabre tooth tiger ot the velociraptor (although they would have made ace pets I reckon, imagine walking one of those past a bunch of scally's with irate pit-bulls ha ha). The problem that really comes about is what happens because of the demise of the Dodo. There's this tree you see. Unfortunately for it, this tree can't progenerate unless it's seeds get eaten by a Dodo and shit out. Now that tree is in decline and there's nothing we can do about it. Ho hum, except that there's this insect that fed mostly on the fruit of this tree when not many other things did and when the tree is gone they probably won't last because they won't be able to compete with the animals and insects that feed on other fruits. This will be in our lifetime by the way. And so the domino's begin to fall. You could still say so fucking what as the chances of this domino run fucking you up is next to nil. Lucky us.
But what if a domino is really big. Huge, massive, immense, and you can't even see it. We've got one of those around us, or not as the case may be. Geddit? You know, Bees.
Oops, the Bees are in a spot of bother, and this should bother you, even if you don't like honey. We've fucked about with Bees and their environment so much that they can't take it anymore. Seriously, google colony collapse disorder. If Bees go then suddenly that domino run gets very, very, very close indeed. I'd ask the dogs and the zebras and the dolphins to do something about it, but they can't, no one else can, it has to be us.
You'd think that with all the universities and colleges and research groups and general abundance of the throbbing frontal lobed posse, we'd know how this wee planet of ours works. But we don't, not even the half of it. And this is why biodiversity is important and why we should be a lot more careful about fucking with it. Yes, the man made acceleration of extinction of species is the result of what man does naturally, but unlike a different animal wiping out another species, we do it in the matter of a handful of generations. We do it so fast that the endangered species doesn't have a chance to run away, adapt, fight back or at the very least give the systems of the world a chance to reorganise and get on with things just like it always did.
If you want to know the reasons, then it basically comes down to fucking and eating. Other species just fuck and eat and after that nothing that they do harms the environment. Cod is a brilliant example, even with current obesity rates if we had only caught the cod that we have actually eaten as a species then the cod would never have been in trouble.
So you so fucking what attitude is horribly misguided.
Everyone else, shape up because lamenting grebes and worrying about plastic bags isn't going to cut it. Your arguments need to be tighter, more focused and more to the point.
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I once read that preserving endangered animals was pointless and that we should try to preserve the variety in the gene pool rather than picking a rare animal and saving that. If an animal has many shared genes then it isn't worth saving but if it has no close cousins and therefore a number of unique genes then it is worth it.
The article is called 'so much to save' from a proficiency in English book but was originally published in the economist. Can't find a copy online apart from here, but you have to sign up for a trial, which I won't do.
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-12254470.html -
boom!
Why is man's impact not natural. Well in a way you're right, we are doing what comes naturally to us and that in itself is a fair point. Thus the arguments that have been made against your opinion haven't been that well laid out and frankly a bit too reactionary and handwringing for my liking.
Oliver says that he's sad that we lost the Dodo. As a staunch left-wing environmentalist I can say hand on heart that I'm not that sad about it. Just like I'm not that sad about the loss of the wooly mammoth, the sabre tooth tiger ot the velociraptor (although they would have made ace pets I reckon, imagine walking one of those past a bunch of scally's with irate pit-bulls ha ha). The problem that really comes about is what happens because of the demise of the Dodo. There's this tree you see. Unfortunately for it, this tree can't progenerate unless it's seeds get eaten by a Dodo and shit out. Now that tree is in decline and there's nothing we can do about it. Ho hum, except that there's this insect that fed mostly on the fruit of this tree when not many other things did and when the tree is gone they probably won't last because they won't be able to compete with the animals and insects that feed on other fruits. This will be in our lifetime by the way. And so the domino's begin to fall. You could still say so fucking what as the chances of this domino run fucking you up is next to nil. Lucky us.
But what if a domino is really big. Huge, massive, immense, and you can't even see it. We've got one of those around us, or not as the case may be. Geddit? You know, Bees.
Oops, the Bees are in a spot of bother, and this should bother you, even if you don't like honey. We've fucked about with Bees and their environment so much that they can't take it anymore. Seriously, google colony collapse disorder. If Bees go then suddenly that domino run gets very, very, very close indeed. I'd ask the dogs and the zebras and the dolphins to do something about it, but they can't, no one else can, it has to be us.
You'd think that with all the universities and colleges and research groups and general abundance of the throbbing frontal lobed posse, we'd know how this wee planet of ours works. But we don't, not even the half of it. And this is why biodiversity is important and why we should be a lot more careful about fucking with it. Yes, the man made acceleration of extinction of species is the result of what man does naturally, but unlike a different animal wiping out another species, we do it in the matter of a handful of generations. We do it so fast that the endangered species doesn't have a chance to run away, adapt, fight back or at the very least give the systems of the world a chance to reorganise and get on with things just like it always did.
If you want to know the reasons, then it basically comes down to fucking and eating. Other species just fuck and eat and after that nothing that they do harms the environment. Cod is a brilliant example, even with current obesity rates if we had only caught the cod that we have actually eaten as a species then the cod would never have been in trouble.
So you so fucking what attitude is horribly misguided.
Everyone else, shape up because lamenting grebes and worrying about plastic bags isn't going to cut it. Your arguments need to be tighter, more focused and more to the point.
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This is a slightly pointless argument to wade into, but like Seldom Killer says, biodiversity is complex - the earth and it's ecology are a complex set of systems in which it is quite hard to determine the difference between cause and effect. Recent events suggest to me that humans (who are 'naturally' in the driving seat) have quite a limited understanding of complex systems, much less an ability to intervene effectively within them, especially on a grand scale.
I can understand the somewhat fatalist position which states that we are all part of a natural order, and that we should just pursue whatever takes our fancy to the best of our ability regardless of the consequences. It's one thing not to care about a couple of species dropping off the list, but I find it a little strange that few people consider how they might have short changed their children, or their children's children. etc.
Personally I'd quite like to know that these people might have a place to live which is somewhat similar to the place we inhabit now, but others might not. Technically caring about future generations is irrational - who cares once I'm dead (not me)?
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Oops, the Bees are in a spot of bother, and this should bother you, even if you don't like honey. We've fucked about with Bees and their environment so much that they can't take it anymore.
It seems the possible culprit has been found and guess what -- it isn't us.
The colony collapses are caused by the combination of Nosema ceranea microsporidian and RNA viruses. I haven't got a link to anything else than a Finnish paper, but as the source of the news was BBC (they were quoting some US researchers), I'd think the news can be found elsewhere, too.
So step off the blame train, please.
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the bee thing has not been proven to be human-related & they are not the sole pollinator of most plants.
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the bee thing has not been proven to be human-related & they are not the sole pollinator of most plants.
Yeah. And even though everything was about to collapse as the bees died, well, I don't remember having to a premium for fruit and vegetables.
CCD is nothing new: it comes and goes.
(Not that there are no things man-made that couldn't be improved so as to leave a lesser mark on the environment.)
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Oliver says that he's sad that we lost the Dodo. As a staunch left-wing environmentalist I can say hand on heart that I'm not that sad about it. Just like I'm not that sad about the loss of the wooly mammoth, the sabre tooth tiger ot the velociraptor (although they would have made ace pets I reckon, imagine walking one of those past a bunch of scally's with irate pit-bulls ha ha). The problem that really comes about is what happens because of the demise of the Dodo. There's this tree you see. Unfortunately for it, this tree can't progenerate unless it's seeds get eaten by a Dodo and shit out. Now that tree is in decline and there's nothing we can do about it. Ho hum, except that there's this insect that fed mostly on the fruit of this tree when not many other things did and when the tree is gone they probably won't last because they won't be able to compete with the animals and insects that feed on other fruits. This will be in our lifetime by the way. And so the domino's begin to fall. You could still say so fucking what as the chances of this domino run fucking you up is next to nil. Lucky us.
So, basically, you're saying that you're sad that we lost the dodo, right? ;P
mikec
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When will we learn...
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@dicki
Yeah, fucking teenagers just sitting in all day playing it on their playbox 360, bunch of sad bastards if you ask me.