Shots off the front wheel - rule?

wow you guys like to make it complicated.

**a goal is a goal if the ball passes the line, unless it was a shuffle from an attacking player. **

nice and simple. all the other rules that have nothing to do with scoring (no kicking, throwing, no mallet on bike, etc) still apply.

if you remember the intention of the rule, it's that scoring with a shuffle is to easy.

I'm with Kev.

(Halfcourt sucks compared with returning to the D though.)

I'm with Jono

+1 kev

+1 kev

BUT
you need to redefine shoot in all cases, because if the last touching by mallet is a shuffle, the rule by kev not allow goal from front wheel, you need the bureaucratic false shot before, and it sucks.

wow you guys like to make it complicated.

**a goal is a goal if the ball passes the line, unless it was a shuffle from an attacking player. **

nice and simple. all the other rules that have nothing to do with scoring (no kicking, throwing, no mallet on bike, etc) still apply.

if you remember the intention of the rule, it's that scoring with a shuffle is to easy.

This definition [st]allows for picking the ball up and throwing it into the goal./st

It also allows for riding your bike into the goal, in order to score, when the ball is stuck in your wheel (as long as the ball wasn't stuck in your wheel due to a shuffle from an attacking player).

wow you guys like to make it complicated.

No shit, Kev.

:-)

It also allows for riding your bike into the goal, in order to score, when the ball is stuck in your wheel (as long as the ball wasn't stuck in your wheel due to a shuffle from an attacking player).

Ball stuck in bike / clothes /etc = stop play, remove ball, restart play. i thought that was already covered.

Hmm. Do we have a rule like this? We sometimes stop and pull it out, but we sometimes ride up to goal and try to whack it from the wheel into goal. I'm pretty sure we play that you can't just ride into goal with your bike, you must shoot it in with your mallet. Maybe this has changed ... ?

Hmm. Do we have a rule like this? We sometimes stop and pull it out, but we sometimes ride up to goal and try to whack it from the wheel into goal. I'm pretty sure we play that you can't just ride into goal with your bike, you must shoot it in with your mallet. Maybe this has changed ... ?

Current rule is:

If the ball becomes trapped within a player’s bike or person play continues but please be aware that any legal play towards the bike or person will be considered as play towards the ball and therefore legal.

I like the manic "run for the hills!" approach to when a ball gets stuck.

Currently the league rules state that if you ride through the goal with the ball trapped in your wheel, it's a goal (not many people seem to realise this though).

I suppose it's pretty dangerous, hence why some people foot down and take the ball out?

Currently the league rules state that if you ride through the goal with the ball trapped in your wheel, it's a goal (not many people seem to realise this though).

Most people haven't read the rules!

+1 kev

BUT
you need to redefine shoot in all cases, because if the last touching by mallet is a shuffle, the rule by kev not allow goal from front wheel, you need the bureaucratic false shot before, and it sucks.

Don't understand what you mean here. (By the way, are you one of the Geneva guys? If so, which one?)

Kev's proposition is easy to understand, and very easy to call, if you are reffing.

Number one rule of making rules: don't make rules you can't easily enforce.

...Currently the league rules state that if you ride through the goal with the ball trapped in your wheel, it's a goal (not many people seem to realise this though)...

Yea, it's not covered directly but you could interpret this:

[]Reflection means a hit coming off of a offensive player’s bike or person whether purposeful or accidental.
[]If an offensive player adds momentum or direction purposefully to a reflection it is not a goal. All other reflections are goals.

...as meaning it's not a goal.

I'm still of the thought that if you use your wheel as a mallet to score* then your wheel falls under the fair mallet-to-mallet contact and that's not on IMO. Yea, it sucks because wheel shots are amazing for spectators and players alike.

*And as long as there are pro-ball joint and shuffle travelling/passing rules and anti-ball joint and shuffle scoring rules, then the wheel can have separate rules as well so blocking/passing/travelling with the wheel can be legal.

;1202168']
I'm still of the thought that if you use your wheel as a mallet to score* then your wheel falls under the fair mallet-to-mallet contact.

i really don't understand this. Just ban mallet to wheel contact.

;1202168']Yea, it's not covered directly but you could interpret this:

[quote=rules]

[*]Reflection means a hit coming off of a offensive player’s bike or person whether purposeful or accidental.

[*]If an offensive player adds momentum or direction purposefully to a reflection it is not a goal. All other reflections are goals.

...as meaning it's not a goal.

I'm still of the thought that if you use your wheel as a mallet to score* then your wheel falls under the fair mallet-to-mallet contact and that's not on IMO. Yea, it sucks because wheel shots are amazing for spectators and players alike.

*And as long as there are pro-ball joint and shuffle travelling/passing rules and anti-ball joint and shuffle scoring rules, then the wheel can have separate rules as well so blocking/passing/travelling with the wheel can be legal.

i like what your saying here.

shot is a shot,shuffle is a shuffle,
a deflection is a deflection... purposeful or not this is still the case.

**a goal is a goal if the ball passes the line, unless it was a shuffle from an attacking player. **

+1 to all of this. Why do we keep arguing about intent every time? Mallet to wheel contact is still illegal because this has nothing to do with "using a wheel as a mallet" (unless you want to start arguing you can only score with the thin end of a wheel). What matters is the shot vs shuffle of the mallet. Everything else is a deflection. Maybe thats intentional, maybe not. Its irrelevant, and its not necessary for referees to be constantly judging intent.

Number one rule of making rules: don't make rules you can't easily enforce.

Exactly.

What if you use a ball-joint to get the ball on the disc-wheel and then pop the front and flick the ball ?

You cant score from a ball joint. A wheel is not a mallet. Therefore no hit=no goal. But Ill buy you beer if you can do it..

... A wheel is not a mallet. Therefore no hit=no goal.

My point exactly. If you say intent doesn't matter, then what about ball off body goals? If the ball bounces off a leg into the goal it's counted a goal but if someone kicks the ball in it's not counted.

or "you cant stop a goal by using your hand intentionally (unless youre Dale)"? Hmm. Fair point. Youre right. Intention can make a difference.

I think we're generally against intentional body-ball contact in any form e.g. kicking, catching, etc. But intentional bike-ball contact has always been allowed e.g. blocking, so we're really only debating intentional bike-ball scoring. If we're all agreed that a wheel is not a mallet, then to count as a goal it must first have come from a shot, not a shuffle or ball joint, which makes it a deflection. Unintended deflections have always been goals, so the only issue is whether intentional deflections can count as goals or not, and I'm inclined to not introduce intent unless we have to (ie, dont make it more complicated unless theres a good reason).

However, as you also pointed out, our current league rules (and the ehbpc09 rules theyre based on) do prohibit intentional deflections. Have we ever used that rule for anything though? Were we trying to prevent Radball? I know we talked about it at the euros refs meeting, but I dont remember where that came from. Bill? Ray? If its a rule we've never used, and nobody else plays with it either, maybe we can think about losing it for next season?

Don't understand what you mean here. (By the way, are you one of the Geneva guys? If so, which one?)

Kev's proposition is easy to understand, and very easy to call, if you are reffing.

Number one rule of making rules: don't make rules you can't easily enforce.

Im clément from iron ponies, and the substitute goalkeeper from l'équipe at ehbpc2009. (hairy guy).

My point is that the rule of kev is an good idea. But, for me, make a lil' shot before shouting intentionnaly with front wheel is kind of stupid if the player can score without doing it. For me the question is "can we add an shooting from front wheel new rule?".
Why a new rule, because it can be more easy to ref... for example, i shuffle in the beggining of the action, i travel without touching the ball with my mallet, then, near to goal, i score with a shot ("Marc style"). Does the ref realy need to now that the begin of the action was a shot or a shuffle? Is that the job of the goal-ref to call the goal or the job of mainref?
Isn't that too complicated for the ref to remeber every last touch that people do?

exactly, your last touch could be 10 yards from goal, then flick it in with your wheel within a yard, it would be very hard to be able to remember what your last touch was. As that would be asking too much of a ref I would rule it a goal.

my personal stance is, if the ball crosses the line it is a goal whatever the circumstances*.

*assuming you are on your bike, one hand on bars, one hand on mallet.

...Does the ref realy need to now that the begin of the action was a shot or a shuffle? Is that the job of the goal-ref to call the goal or the job of mainref?
Isn't that too complicated for the ref to remeber every last touch that people do?

Yep, I'm in the camp of err on the side of caution, or you could just rule out the wheel shot and help eliminate the possibility of mistakenly calling a shuffle a goal.

exactly, your last touch could be 10 yards from goal, then flick it in with your wheel within a yard, it would be very hard to be able to remember what your last touch was. As that would be asking too much of a ref I would rule it a goal.

I think that most other people would call it a goal as well, but not for that reason.

my personal stance is, if the ball crosses the line it is a goal whatever the circumstances*.

*assuming you are on your bike, one hand on bars, one hand on mallet.

• So the first goal [ame=http://vimeo.com/7667298]in
  this vid[/ame] shouldn't be a goal?
  

no, because it's a ball joint.

but i see your point. wording all this is so hard.

Yea, I think it's a bit of a scoop/ball joint as well but was the first reference I could come up with to suit.

Wow, a lot of talking out here !

I'd like to complain on this goal, because no one saw what really happened, especially the ref, and someone said "shuffle". I have an idea on that. I think it's time for some "non-staff" people to keep things to them selves...wont give any names, but some of us know. Awesome to have been able to score this way in tournament but frustrating to here "shuffle".

Polo player on grass can use their wheels.

What if a player hits the ball with his back wheel, it's possible too. And it looks awesome

I agree with Kev, as long as the ball goes through the line, it's a goal. This front wheel trick is just the beginning of a long list of tricks that refs will have to knox of and consider right.

The frontwheel trick, which we're gonna have to find a name for, can be done like at the Greifmasters, meaning horizontaly from the gaolie. But also facing the gaolie, shooting from behind, going full speed.(knowing how to stop after that too.)This trick is actually very officient and precise, try it out. The "must" would be doing an eagle (hitting the goal's mallet) while doing the wheel trick ;)
I did it in Paris, it's a blaaaaaaast.

Other new trick !
I saw players lifting their front wheels over the ball to either protect it or have it on the right side. i did it at the Pit in nyc, and Seabass from seattle said "wow ! never thought of doing that before !" This trick came from guthrie, i saw him doing it in Paris.

Did you notice, this great mallet stop ? when the player leans forward, lies the mallet completly on the ground and blocks the ball ? Mathieu from MGM and I did that (saw it in philadelphia), it works amazingly well !

Guys, each tournament has to show everyone's improvements, right ? So who's next ?

Who wants to try a wheely reverse shot or a mallet keo spin to turn around ? Did it too ! haha

M.