Homeopathy

Yep, and other medications for similar disorders, primarily in children, being readily prescribed in the US - and probably often unnecessarily.

Is this what you are referring to when you say we are grossly overmedicated ?

Yes. And it's only one example.

Don't mess about with fish oil, it is very very powerful stuff, it can raise your IQ by several hundred points and pop your head open.

I actually do take it from time to time.

Pedo apologist.

Empecheur de tourner en rond

Fish (Oil) has benefits...
The scandi's have shown a link (using their supreme medical records) between high fish diet and reduced Alzheimer's onset.
Nurk, E., Drevon, C.A., Refsum, H., Solvoll, K., Vollset, S.E., Nygård, O., Nygaard, H.A., (...), Smith, A.D. Cognitive performance among the elderly and dietary fish intake: The Hordaland Health Study (2007) American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 86 (5), pp. 1470-1478

I'll just point out the obvious here (ie: I am not disagreeing or agreeing with you.)

A link between a high fish diet and and reduced Alzheimer's onset means one thing, that there is a possible causal link between a high fish diet and and reduced Alzheimer's onset.

It does not mean there is a causal link between fish oil and reduced Alzheimer's onset.

I mostly take offence to anecdotal evidence- all of your points (arguments):

I'm with photoben. As I said before my partner is a firm believer, which is fine with me but what happens once there is another...?

Go see a homeopath and you'll understand. I have no clue about this stuff but I'll try to explain.
They use this machine that measures the frequency (or something) by putting this metal thingy on your pressure points. Different points for different ailments or organs etc.
If everything is OK it hovers around the 50mark (there is a scale from 0 to 100 I think) but if there is an "imbalance" it shoots up. This has been surprisingly/annoyingly accurate too.
They then put the "remedies" they think will help on this plate that is part of the circuit and with some remedies it calms down to the 50 mark again and with others it doesn't

There are also more advanced machines where they strap things to your limbs and head to measure multiple pressure points simultaneously.
The reports that come from this thingy are scarily detailed and accurate

this is particularly 12yr old ish:

Listen you fucknut!
If you read carefully you will see that I don't have much faith in the effectiveness of homeopathy but have found my experience of their diagnosis rather puzzling as the equipment used often highlighted small ailments which I was aware of but which would not have been obvious to the practitioner.

I was never really fussed about the arguments for or against it as my girlfriend wanted me to go and I was happy to do it. What I thought of it was neither here nor there and although I sometimes take the piss out of the treatment and methods I am in no position to rubbish something I don't understand or have any knowledge about.

So if you want to form an educated opinion about something why don't you go and check it out yourself and then perhaps study up on some subjective research into it. Reading up on other people's opinions doesn't really count and then you can come back and update me with a brief of what you find you donkey

but whatever.

Yes. And it's only one example.

We have what we suspect to be unnecessary prescription of medicines for a closely related group of conditions, to children in some parts of the US. (Do you have any figures that support the idea that these children are grossly overmedicated ?)

Are there any other examples of this overmedication you can think of ?

You guys should see how many pills my Gran used to take. It's not right. She was taking some pills for her heart, and then some pills to treat the side effects of those and so on.

A few years back, a doctor audited all her treatments and cut that number by 75% or something. Discernable difference in her.

I thought of you lot last week when I went to the chemist in France. The homeopathic display was quite impressive.

You guys should see how many pills my Gran used to take. It's not right. She was taking some pills for her heart, and then some pills to treat the side effects of those and so on.

A few years back, a doctor audited all her treatments and cut that number by 75% or something. Discernable difference in her.

What do you think the result might be of our overmedication ? What might we look for in the population as an indicator of this gross overmedication ?

That wasn't a response to you, tynan. What is your position if you don't mind me asking.

That wasn't a response to you, tynan. What is your position if you don't mind me asking.

I don't mind you asking, but you would need to be specific with your question.

What do you think the result might be of our overmedication ? What might we look for in the population as an indicator of this gross overmedication ?

One indicator might be a multi bazillion dollar pharmaceutical industry.

I'll just point out the obvious here (ie: I am not disagreeing or agreeing with you.)
A link between a high fish diet and and reduced Alzheimer's onset means one thing, that there is a possible causal link between a high fish diet and and reduced Alzheimer's onset.
It does not mean there is a causal link between fish oil and reduced Alzheimer's onset.

Firstly- did you mean to write casual then causal?

Secondly, and anyway, the causality is enhanced for the reason below:

that study is particularly interesting, because it accounts for many other factors by selecting people from Western norway who have a very small gene pool, and activity and environment, etc. and attempts to justify any other differences that might arise, as well as being a very thorough study in itself.

Here's a quick summary I wrote some time ago in a thesis on AD- (65%- decent)

Two diets have been seen to have positive effects in relation to both dementia and AD. These are fish diets and the Mediterranean diet. The fish and seafood diet was studied by Nurk et all (2007) with 2031 subjects from Western Norway, who were subject to cognitive testing. Fish and seafood are high in the omega 3 polyunsaturated fatty acid docohexaemoic acid, which has been shown to reduce the amyloid burden. This study showed that it increased cognitive ability: diets containing over 10g of fish per day showed significantly higher test scores than those on less than 10g of fish per day, with the maximum effect being noted at 75g/ day, with a positive correlation. The study also showed a lower incidence rate of AD amongst the fish eaters.

Would you agree with my assertion that we (let's say "we" are individuals living in western society), are overmedicated?

I don't mind you asking, but you would need to be specific with your question.

A lot of what GPs do is to juggle the medication of the elderly. It's not an exact science at the individual level.

The very act of reducing the medication may have had a real effect, just as increasing it later might also have an effect.

Additionally people might find themselves on regimes that were relevant 5-10 years ago, as drugs improve (and they do, fairly constantly) you can always update the regime, a anti-coagulant might be replaced with a better form that removes the previous versions side effects, the drug itself may be less of a chore to take (perhaps a single dose a day rather than 4 set at intervals) - removal of the side effects negates the other drug you were taking to handle these side effects, and the anti-acid you were taking for the second drug becomes redundant . . . . and so on.

We shouldn't be surprised to see medical complex regimes improve with time.

"What do you think the result might be of our overmedication ? What might we look for in the population as an indicator of this gross overmedication ?"

One indicator might be a multi bazillion dollar pharmaceutical industry.

You can't continue to work entirely in bald assertions, at some point would have to actually make your case.

You are just making a circular argument here:

A) People are taking too many drugs

B) What indications do you think we might see if people are taking too many drugs.

A) Too many drugs are being sold.

Firstly- did you mean to write casual then causal?

No, I meant it the way I wrote it - 'causal' in both cases.

Secondly, and anyway, the causality is enhanced for the reason below

I agree there is a positive correlation, and I am sure I don't have to wheel out the overused 'correlation does not equal causation' because you obviously know your stuff- but what made the researcher think that it was the fish oil that was having the effect ?

Would you agree with my assertion that we (let's say "we" are individuals living in western society), are overmedicated?

If you can loosely define what you mean by 'overmedicated' in a meaningful way (rather than an rewording of the term 'overmedicated') - and can share with me what has led you to this idea, I will have a go at answering the question.

The French have a thing for suppositories too, non?

It works wonders when you have a sore throat and your skin pores give out eucalyptus smell.

I have to say, at this juncture, for all the good Ben Goldacre has done in highlighting the benefits of questioning how science is reported, he can be a little overselective in his supporting papers.

Fish (Oil) has benefits...
The scandi's have shown a link (using their supreme medical records) between high fish diet and reduced Alzheimer's onset.
Nurk, E., Drevon, C.A., Refsum, H., Solvoll, K., Vollset, S.E., Nygård, O., Nygaard, H.A., (...), Smith, A.D. Cognitive performance among the elderly and dietary fish intake: The Hordaland Health Study (2007) American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 86 (5), pp. 1470-1478

As does the 'Mediterranean Diet':
Scarmeas, N, Luchsinger, J, Mayeux, R, Stern,Y Mediterranean diet and Alzheimer disease mortality NEUROLOGY (2007);69:1084-1093

ahem.
B.G. (pbuh) has issues with the "trial" of fish oils in boosting children's education. specifically the Durham trial.
His issue is with the lack of evidence, the changing of the trial etc.
it is not with fish oils per se.

or, after having read his book, his multiple columns, his website, and seen him talk, i thnk that's what he was saying.

What do you think might be a good test for the hypothesis that we are overmedicated?

Shake every one, if they rattle, too many pills.

If you can loosely define what you mean by 'overmedicated' in a meaningful way (rather than an rewording of the term 'overmedicated') - and can share with me what has led you to this idea, I will have a go at answering the question.

You did a pretty good job up there with my Ritalin example. Let's go with that.

@ tynan.
agreed. correlation does not make cause.
the researchers tried to make the only significant difference between the two groups of elderly hordalanders their diet.

and as you know your stuff too- you know that i can never fully say that there is more than a strong association.

@ damo.
So what- though poorly written, my comment about Ben Goldacre had nothing to do with the then following journal articles.
the journal articles were in suppoert of the fact that fish (oil) DOES have benefits, something that was being debated (albeit jokingly) a few pages ago by mr.B and mr T- though this may have been misread by me too, as i was midway through a google scholar search

I stand by my comment that he occasionally is overselective, but will add that of all contemporary science journalists, he is my favorite, and somewhat of a hero to me.
but there you go.

i don't think believe/recall from my fervered mind, from my many worshippings at his temple, that BG (pbuh) has ever doubted that there might be a link with fish oils. his problem is that trial.

i was merely pointing out how i found it funny that you were talking about selectivity from BG (pbuh) and fish oils, and then demonstrated that very same quality.

i agree it was poorly written in that one post.
and i apologise.
I should have separated the posts or added a 'On another note'.
The trial in question is poor science.
and B.G. is again, like he is to you, a hero of mine.

Another complication is that of compliance. Not an easy one to study, either, as people are prone to lie.

Also this one anecdote - as support for the idea that we are being overmedicated - seems to suffer from a little confirmation bias.

The situation is that a doctor assesses a patient's drug regime and rather than keep it going as it is or encourage stronger drugs to be taken or even increase the type and amount of drugs - he reduces the amount - and by a quite impressive 75%.

And this is used as evidence (or at least an illustration) of how we are overmedicated.

Let's look at the opposite scenario.

The situation here is that a doctor assesses a patient's drug regime and rather than reducing the amount he either keeps it going as it is or encourages stronger drugs to be taken or even increases the type and amount of drugs to be used.

I suspect that this would also be seen as evidence for how we are overmedicated ?