The Vegan Thread

None of those articles make mention to fish farming, only to commercial fishing.

Fish farming is sustainable.

+1

Aquaculture needs to be encouraged to help meet the worlds fish demand. Too many species are being fished to the brink of extinction.

Cattle farming etc tends to wipe out other species due to loss of habitat/deforestation etc. In Australia it is a major cause of soil erosion (hard hoofs) which has other implications for the condition of the land. Some believe Kangaroos (soft padded feet) should be farmed instead as they are much better adapted to the local conditions.

If the primary fertilizer for harvest N.o 1 of vegetables is animal manure and for harvest N.o 2 the primarily fertilizer petrol chemical based then I suppose for the strict vegan harvest N.o 2 is preferred. However this may cause conflicts if said vegan would like to minimise the use of petrol chemical. Difficult choice...

Some believe Kangaroos (soft padded feet) should be farmed instead as they are much better adapted to the local conditions.

They are better eating too, and exist in plague numbers.

None of those articles make mention to fish farming, only to commercial fishing.

Fish farming is sustainable.
Apologies, you are quite correct those articles are about fishing not fish farming.

This was one of the articles I was looking for: http://www.fishinghurts.com/fishFarms.asp

Again, I'm trying to keep this answer away from mention of ending a life as I realise these are my views and not yours.

If the primary fertilizer for harvest N.o 1 of vegetables is animal manure and for harvest N.o 2 the primarily fertilizer petrol chemical based then I suppose for the strict vegan harvest N.o 2 is preferred. However this may cause conflicts if said vegan would like to minimise the use of petrol chemical. Difficult choice...
Are the animals kept in captivity or are they wild? Does the manure include human faeces? Are you adding compost to the mixture?

There are too many variables not included in this to be able to make a call.

That said I appreciate the petrochemical effect my life has on the planet, especially when looking at things like cycling clothing (Merino versus man made fibres etc).

The church of euthanasia would say, "Save the planet, Kill yourself", there is probably some truth in that.

The planet will be here long after we destroy ourselves.

The planet will be here but will we have left any form of functioning ecosystem behind?

I dont rate us that highly as a species. We're probably only capable of half fucking it up.

That's still a pretty fucking huge percentage considering the short time we've been around.

Are the animals kept in captivity or are they wild? Does the manure include human faeces? Are you adding compost to the mixture?

Realistically the manure will be from framed, so captive animals, some times treated human feces or compost is used but the greater part of manure used on vegetables and grains (especially organic) is from farm animals (in my experience).

I am being a barstard here, as I realise different people will have their own personal line and view on all of these things and of course we can never be absolute in our reduction of harm to the planet, only minimise as far as we personally see possible within our comfort zones.

That said I appreciate the petrochemical effect my life has on the planet, especially when looking at things like cycling clothing (Merino versus man made fibres etc).

The church of euthanasia would say, "Save the planet, Kill yourself", there is probably some truth in that.

This is the only way to truly minimise our effect, although it's not as much fun and in a sense rather defeatist. We could say, try to implement a system which has a net positive effect on the world and in fact help counteract for the negative life of others and so by killing ourself may in fact leave the planet in a worse off state. This is all a bit navel gazing though.

people will have their own personal line and view on all of these things and of course we can never be absolute in our reduction of harm to the planet, only minimise as far as we personally see possible within our comfort zones
This is the only bit of your post that I disagree with.

Let me rephrase that.

To a level of acceptable compromise,

or a to a level of personal sacrifice which we find palatable.

I am deviating from vegan here but as an example I was reading a interview with Nicholas Crane who has been all over the world, and he was saying how he had come to give up flying, now he was saying he misses being able to goto the Himalayas in 12 hours or so but does not feel he can justify the damage he is causing by doing that so he sacrifices that part of his life. Now it's not really a big sacrifice in many respects, his life is still very comfy not flying but it's a sacrifice he feel he can make and one that he is able to make. I don't think many people sacrifice everything they can but many people sacrifice everything they feel they can. The deferences between these two is little for some and large for others and in a sense it's what your level of comfort is that defines how close "is possible" and "what we feel possible" are for you personally. Neither of these points are stationary however. Aim to minimise the gap by what ever means you feel are doable is I guess what I am saying, and keep on pushing.

[/pulls head out of arse]

That makes a lot of sense Tommy. It's a good set of guide lines to live by.

Let me rephrase that.

To a level of acceptable compromise,

or a to a level of personal sacrifice which we find palatable.

I am deviating from vegan here but as an example I was reading a interview with Nicholas Crane who has been all over the world, and he was saying how he had come to give up flying, now he was saying he misses being able to goto the Himalayas in 12 hours or so but does not feel he can justify the damage he is causing by doing that so he sacrifices that part of his life. Now it's not really a big sacrifice in many respects, his life is still very comfy not flying but it's a sacrifice he feel he can make and one that he is able to make. I don't think many people sacrifice everything they can but many people sacrifice everything they feel they can. The deferences between these two is little for some and large for others and in a sense it's what your level of comfort is that defines how close "is possible" and "what we feel possible" are for you personally. Neither of these points are stationary however. Aim to minimise the gap by what ever means you feel are doable is I guess what I am saying, and keep on pushing.

[/pulls head out of arse]

Nicely put, which is also why 'more-ethical-than-thou' vegetarians/vegans do my nut in. We all have ethical cut off points because, like it or not, we all have some level of impact on the world around us.

Nicely put, which is also why 'more-ethical-than-thou' vegetarians/vegans do my nut in.

To be fair most vegans I have met do not tend to be preachy they just state, "I can't eat that I'm vegan" if you offer them something they can't eat and don't really push the point. It tends to be more people attacking vegan, it a bit like the bike vs car things that cause some people to have a victim mentality if they are contently attacked, hence the self righteous cyclist mentality cyclist get labeled with frequently. I'm interest in the vegan thing because it's interesting for me to hear where they cut off point is hence the bastard question of veggies grown with petrol chemical vs farmyard manure question

Oh yeah of course, they're in the minority but they propogate the negative veggie/vegan stereotype as well which also pisses me off. It's massively interesting for me too as I'm a veggie but not because I don't like animals lives being ended. To me it's a quintessential fact of life that things die so that other things can live.

bastard veggies grown with petrol chemical vs farmyard manure question

It's a good one. My version is the fact that many out of season vegetable crops have to be flown round the globe, sometimes several times in the production process, before you buy it. Most of the vegans I know grow a lot of their own stuff as a kind of counterbalance to that one.

Thread for vegan Christmas meal:

http://www.londonfgss.com/thread34038.html

Ta,
Is it good?

If you're looking for a good vegan energy snack while out cycling, try the flapjacks from holland and barrett.

WTF!!??

The whole placenta eating thing is suggested for the women who give birth because its supposed to replace some of the chemicals/hormones lost in the birthing process which can lead to post-natal depression and such. All these 'new age types' think its a good idea because many animals do it.

most animals eat it to get rid of any evidence that they have given birth, therefore attracting fewer predators to their young, giving them a greater chance of survival. humans don't need to do that......

So why do dogs eat their shit?

^ Good point...

"Veganism is a way of living that seeks to exclude, as far as possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing and any other purpose"

Huge issue this- but I would ask you to define cruelty and exploitation with reference to an organic farmer (not factory farming).

Those poor honey bees! wub

Prairie dogs eat their young. I believe this discredits your pagan religion.

Balki- cv opinion?