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• #102
some thoughts about last nights program:
There was too much anger in the room; people were falling over themselves to attack Griffin, without really giving him enough chance to talk about the BNPs policies first. He was nearly always interrupted and shouted down, before he'd ever really said that much. If he'd been allowed to relax a bit more and be treated slightly more fairly, he would have probably come out with some much more damning stuff.
In spite of barely being allowed to speak, Griffin still showed himself to be a fat fool -the BNP are nothing to be afraid of while he is their leader - he doesn't have it in him to lead a 4th Reich!
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• #103
- In spite of barely being allowed to speak, Griffin still showed himself to be a fat fool -the BNP are nothing to be afraid of while he is their leader - he doesn't have it in him to lead a 4th Reich!
agree with both points you made there really but the second one is key. The BNP is only a very minor party and whilst their politics are odious we don't really need to go in to full panic mode just cos some fat bigot is going on TV. we are fortunate also that he is a fat shifty looking bigot as well and i suspect that a lot of his members will be pretty unimpressed with him and that he may get a bit of a rough ride from his own membership
- In spite of barely being allowed to speak, Griffin still showed himself to be a fat fool -the BNP are nothing to be afraid of while he is their leader - he doesn't have it in him to lead a 4th Reich!
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• #104
anyone else notice he had to clasp his hands to stop them from shacking?
Master race- your having a laugh -
• #105
bloody foreigners, can't even be bothered to learn to speak correct english
;^]
That is very very insensitive of you Wayne, it's one thing to joke about on a forum - but to target Ed's spelling/Grammar is simply cruelty masquerading as humour - I would have thought of all people you might have been above this - but it seems not.
Anyhow, he is not even foreign, his spelling is rubbish because he is a mental.
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• #106
The BNP is only a very minor party
900,000 voters beg to differ...
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• #107
900,000 voters beg to differ...
in european elections. they wouldn't do so well in general elections.
many people use it as a protest vote in the european elections, to basically say they don't want to be in europe.
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• #108
as a friend pointed out, people should have let up, given him normal questions and let him hang himself with his own rope. he showed how inconceivably bigoted he was and how random and out of touch his views are when he answered that stephen gately/jan moir article question. first he went off about freedom of speach (okay, fair enough) then about the liberal media (uhm...) then about how he finds gays "creepy" (i'm loosing you, nick) and "repulsive" (there we go, that's the nick i know!) and finally about how they shouldn't teach sex to kids in school, especially gay sex (wha? what school did you go to?).
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• #109
i thought warsi was very good last night, shame she's not keen on the gays. but she did a good job up til then. and i am very suspicious of any tory MP's so she started with a lot of negative credit to her name in my books
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• #110
they shouldn't teach sex to kids in school, especially gay sex
Kids nowadays, spoiled rotten.
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• #111
Anyhow, he is not even foreign, his spelling is rubbish because he is a mental.
Mentalist.
Gold though[t]
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• #112
in european elections. they wouldn't do so well in general elections.
many people use it as a protest vote in the european elections, to basically say they don't want to be in europe.
exactly. In terms of representation they have 2MEPs and a handful of councillors and possibly have reached their peak. Doesn't mean that anyone can be complacent and it is a shame that the political system in the country is in such disrepute with the expense stuff recently. But I don't think that we need to respond hysterically as some have done just cos someone from a minor party appears on TV
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• #113
as a friend pointed out, people should have let up, given him normal questions and let him hang himself with his own rope. he showed how inconceivably bigoted he was and how random and out of touch his views are when he answered that stephen gately/jan moir article question. first he went off about freedom of speach (okay, fair enough) then about the liberal media (uhm...) then about how he finds gays "creepy" (i'm loosing you, nick) and "repulsive" (there we go, that's the nick i know!) and finally about how they shouldn't teach sex to kids in school, especially gay sex (wha? what school did you go to?).
Public school education?
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• #114
12 seconds of proof
YouTube - Nick Griffin - Holocaust Denier (BNP)
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• #116
Hm.
I thionk one thing we have to understand about this particular TV appearance is that Griffin wasn't trying to appeal to the particular audience that was there, or indeed the sort of people on this more or less London-centric forum.
Take what was said about the people that voted BNP on the show: I'm sure Griffin will have appealed to quite a few more people who identify with the 'underdog' persona he tried to affect against the other politicians, and there was also a simmering class issue. They were all firmly members of the establishment. He didn't come across like that at all.
Straw came over the worst--he had no bite and was surprisingly insecure when he spoke, but representing, rather unpersuasively, the current government on one of Griffin's main subjects. Huhne was mostly uncontroversial and a bit boring, but clearly not someone who had to justify himself on a lot of things (easy when you haven't been in government for so long). I genuinely can't remember much that he said, except for his very significant description (whether true or not) how the LibDems had reduced the BNP share of the vote in one place. Warsi was assured and persuasive (easy when you haven't been in government for so long), except for that homophobia wobble, and strict with Griffin without being overbearing. Greer had a nice line in being studiedly patronising, carried off some good jokes with good timing, but, again, was very assured.
I don't think that people who vote Griffin are likely to be very assured. They'll be full of fears, on which the BNP plays. They'll feel that Griffin did well going into such a lions' den of upper-class people. I think that even though more of his offensive, wrong, and bizarre views came out as the show went on, that he was challenged less on them towards the end. Trying to see it through the eyes of a potential BNP voter, the whole picture in the end reminded me of someone showing that he can't be persuaded by pressure and bullying (yes, the audience should have tried to lay into him less).
I thought that at times, Griffin played quite skilfully on his victim status, although that was pretty much the only thing he did well. He was extremely nervous right from the off, pretend-laughed far too much at some of the snipes directed at him, like a marginalised child desperately trying to belong with the cool kids, and obviously talked disgusting nonsense, with weak 'evidence'.
But in a TV programme especially, where apparently viewers take in very little of what is actually said, the emotional subtext plays a very important role. On that level, to a certain audience, I'm sure he will have appealed. And don't forget that this programme will probably have given him considerably better name recognition than before. The 'oxygen of publicity' is a real quality.
Overall, I don't agree with the BBC's decision to give him a platform. Yes, on the one hand you can say that had people actually read "Mein Kampf" before the NSDAP gained a double-digit vote, that much harm might have been averted. But I really don't think that there is any danger, now, of such a party ever gaining a share of the vote high enough to really threaten government in this country, or indeed in Germany. On the other hand, I don't think that that is really their aim right now. They aim to gain a solid foothold in elections other than those with very low turnout, to establish more than a fleeting presence (remember that fascistoid parties have popped up and been prohibited or have disappeared on and off in most European countries for the last couple of decades).
So, on the other hand, I certainly think that there are plenty of grounds for denying the BNP such a platform, such as their discriminatory stance against certain legally protected minorities. Denying them a platform doesn't have anything to do with denying them 'freedom of speech', a phrase that's often abused, anyway. They'll still have freedom of speech in a lot of places, they're just not given a major televised platform.
As the quotes that exist of Griffin on camera, combined with his astonishing answer that he cannot now 'explain why he held these views, or why he changed his mind' (not an attempt at an exact quote) show, the BNP are undoubtedly worried of falling further foul of anti-discrimination laws, as those would provide a legal basis, short of outright proscription of the party, of denying them such a platform. Griffin's predictably ridiculous squirmings last night showed up that strategy quite clearly, I thought. I thought what their real views are came out clearly enough, too, but again, I don't think that this was necessarily a successful programme. I didn't enjoy watching it for one second.
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• #117
900,000 voters beg to differ...
That is still minor. One of the comments yesterday was that not everyone who votes BNP is a racist/homophobe presumably because there are not 900,000 racist/homophobes.
Sadly I would think they are far more than that as that would be under 2% of the population. If people don't realise there is still a lot of racist and homphobic feeling in this country then I feel they are mistaken.
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• #118
typically good response there Oliver. I disagree slightly about the bit about whether he should have had a platform or not. The fact that they have elected representatives despite their reprehensible views means that they would have made the argument again and again to appear and I think denying them a place on QT would be unsustainable after a while and plays up to their "victim" status. In the end it is probably 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. They are on the political landscape, they have been elected and thats just something the people of the UK have to deal with and our politicians and media respond to.
I hope the response is to try to bridge the disconnect between the public and our mainstream politicians who aren't all evil baby eaters, even if they are often flawed. Sadly it looks like the media response is to follow Griffin about and jump on anything contraversial/disgusting that he inevitably says giving him more publicity than he deserves. It would be so much better if we could just say that was last night's TV and move on to something new and more important than the rancid whitterings of some sad MEP.
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• #119
typically good response there Oliver. I disagree slightly about the bit about whether he should have had a platform or not. The fact that they have elected representatives despite their reprehensible views means that they would have made the argument again and again to appear and I think denying them a place on QT would be unsustainable after a while and plays up to their "victim" status. In the end it is probably 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. They are on the political landscape, they have been elected and thats just something the people of the UK have to deal with and our politicians and media respond to.
Thanks. I agree they have to be dealt with. I just don't think QT or similar programmes are the right platform. The BNP currently only have a foothold in certain councils and in the European Parliament. A concerted campaign for a higher turnout in the European elections, and indeed action in addressing people's reasons for voting BNP in those councils, would deal with it better. You should certainly have an informed debate in public, but it has to be the right public. Large areas of the country are completely unconcerned with the BNP and now have heard of them and of Griffin. There was no need for that. Experience has shown that if you largely deprive such parties of publicity, then all their underground organising and trying to influence people at the local level will not translate into political longevity, which is what they crave. (They need money first and foremost.)
I hope the response is to try to bridge the disconnect between the public and our mainstream politicians who aren't all evil baby eaters, even if they are often flawed. Sadly it looks like the media response is to follow Griffin about and jump on anything contraversial/disgusting that he inevitably says giving him more publicity than he deserves. It would be so much better if we could just say that was last night's TV and move on to something new and more important than the rancid whitterings of some sad MEP.
I agree. -
• #120
I just don't think QT or similar programmes are the right platform.
unfortunately, if you invite MEPs of other political parties with similar or less representation on to the show then to not invite another just because their views are disagreeable is inconsistent. Sadly, you are right about this giving the BNP the oxygen of publicity in parts of the UK they wouldn't get it, but that was inevitably going to happen when they got 2 MEPs in June. The tipping point was then, this is just a consequence of the result of that election. I do take your point that the media or BBC could have handled this better in a strategic way, but I am not sure I want the BBC or other media outlets to judge what I should or should not hear.
Anyway, I am off home now and wish all the good people of LondonFGSS a fine weekend except for the racists!
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• #121
Anyway, I am off home now and wish all the good people of LondonFGSS a fine weekend except for the racists!
racistist.
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• #122
Anyone here a specialist in the history of the second world war?
I ask because there was a young Jewish chap who asked about the BNP using images of Churchill. He said that Winston laid everything on the line in order to stop Jews being gassed in concentration camps.
Just from my personal knowledge of WWII, I thought that the truth about the concentration camps (the genocide aspect as opposed to being a forced labour camp) only came out after Germany had been defeated and the camps were discovered by the Russian and Allied forces.
I'm certainly not defending Nick Griffin but if we are to attack him & his party, I'd prefer if it were accurate.
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• #123
iI got a "b" in gay sex at school.
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• #124
that was mental.
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• #125
@ wibble: something like that. more to the point when they said stuff about churchill they forgot about him doing this:
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/apr2003/1920-a01.shtmland gallipoli. and dresden. so. er. dunno.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_bombing_debate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_concentration_campappears that 1940-43 from polish dudes providing info...
bloody foreigners, can't even be bothered to learn to speak correct english
;^]