Owning your own home

It all becomes a bit abstract tbh. Not all labour is equal. Not all materials are equal. There is no one size fits all.

Everyone wants a simple equation for materials plus labour but it simply isn't that straightforward. There are so many factors involved that even trying to put it into words is a headache.

"Just increase labour cost" doesn't really work in practise because people just end up seeing an hourly rate that seems vastly beyond what their salary equivalent is. And then at the same time they ignore all the unseen costs of running a business. "I'm not paying for that stuff, I'm just paying for your labour" because all they see is labour plus materials, when actually they're paying for a service from a business that has numerous costs across many areas other than just labour and materials. And then on top of that, if you set a labour rate, the customer will want that for everything regardless of what the job entails. If you average it out for convenience, they'll forget when you work hard and stay late, but complain when you have an easier day. It's a constant headache.

All these things factor in: how difficult is the job, how long is the job, how physical is the job, how pleasant is the job, how complex is the job, how much material is needed, how easy is it to source the materials, how easy is it to select the materials, how accessible is the job, how easy to deal with is the customer, will there be more work from the customer, is the customer reliable, is it easy to get the materials on site, how busy am I at the moment - I could keep going.

So tbh, I don't really see why a labour rate + materials + a small premium on those materials is seen as so scandalous or overcomplicated.

Some spend longer looking at internet fiksie forums than actually working.

:-D

The problem with adding a bit to cover ‘hidden’ labour, is that most of the time the actual sourcing work is carried out within the ‘day’ you’ve already paid someone for.
‘I’ll be in late tomorrow/leaving early tonight, just need to pick something up’.

…erm…plumber in BR?

Looks like our boilers having a little protest and the old boy that used to do the works has inconveniently retired.

Ok, but getting more materials is labour, it also has extra costs like fuel, it requires sufficient cash flow etc. Seeing materials as just stuff bought from shops and labour as just time spent on site is the oversimplification that creates this mess, lol.

This is where it gets murky. I don't do much running off to get stuff any more but it used to be pretty acceptable to have to go and buy materials for the job at hand and that's all time on the job.

What happens when you get more used to your job and the material requirements, you start to turn up with a lot of what's required. In this case you've ordered it on the internet or picked it up in your own time.

So maybe you keep a box of TRV's, 150 assorted elbows, reducers etc. Washers and all that. Now you're not that different to the bike shop with stock on the shelves.

If you quote for a heating system and the quote is accepted you turn up with the radiators that you've priced and the price has been seen and accepted. If the client wanted to supply them because they think they can get equivalent cheaper and then they provide lesser quality or fail to provide it on time. That's what can cause complaints.

Now you're not that different to the bike shop with stock on the shelves.

Agree - and then it’s quantifiably different to purchasing materials for a specific job as now you have working capital tied up as well as some risk of obsolescence / spoiling or whatever.

Much easier to justify some mark-up / retention of trade discount in that scenario.

Acquiring materials will incur costs, one way or another - even if it's just time spent figuring out what's needed.

Yes the customer can pay for the materials directly if they must, but did they work out exactly what was needed, did they know where to purchase them from, do they have accounts set up with the wholesalers, will they collect the materials or pay for delivery? Again the list goes on.

It's also worth pointing out that every job is different and there may be cases where there is no extra added to materials, but it's a case by case thing - I'm simply trying to point out why adding a bit on isn't just some "punter" tax to cheat people out of extra money.

And FWIW, all this uphill work explaining stuff like this why I don't run a business any more, lol. Feels shit working your arse off when half the world seems to think you’re just trying to rip them off, or just wants to haggle some discount so they feel better about what they’re paying for. It’s exhausting.

AC Wilgar

I'm simply trying to point out why adding a bit on isn't just some "punter" tax to cheat people out of extra money.

This is the critical point.

wants to haggle some discount so they feel better about what they’re paying for

As is this. People hate thinking they’ve not got a fair deal, that someone else is paying less. I certainly do. Every order from my local builders’ merchant goes:

‘how much is it?’
‘£2.12 a meter’
‘It was £1.80 last time’
‘Oh, ok we’ll do it for that’

Tiring stuff.

Capitalism innit.

Was going to recommend them too.

I have always thought it would be more transparent to just charge a higher labour rate and materials at cost.

I charge around what you could expect to pay after a quick Google shop around.
Some parts I have found a good supplier and buy in bulk, so make a good markup.
Mostly it's rounding up to the next 25p for easier maths

I worked for many years in a design studio and you can be sure as hell you were paying for everything, somehow. But most relevant here is farming out print/web development services (or any other service who charged us for that matter). We would add mark-up, as much as 20%, to cover any valuable studio time sending emails, getting quotes, yammering in the phone etc

Mark-up on materials covers petrol, insurance, monthlies on the van etc.

Ah Nef got it right. Matter closed.

Just to throw my 2p in.

I'd echo a lot of Nef's points, but overall it comes down to transparency. If someone tells you from the off that they add x% to what they source then you know.

What I've totally lost in this popcorn is whether the drunk chap with the radiators only found this out when he got the bill or if it was upfront. Don't tell me - I don't care anymore.

It does feel more natural for sundries to be included in the labour rate (as does fuel, transport, bookkeeping, etc.) and materials you buy for the client to be charged at cost - with or without your trade discount.

The difference I guess with building vs a lot of other work is the variation in interaction - are they using adhesive they buy all the time and have a stock of for tiling a splashback, or are they collecting specific tiles? Is it a connection box they have 200 in the van or is it a spefic light fitting? The bike analogy only works if a trade literally has a 2nd business selling whatever they're fitting - like a boiler company selling you the boiler Inc installation.

I'm simply trying to point out why adding a bit on isn't just some "punter" tax to cheat people out of extra money.

Conversely, the punter opting to avoid that by sourcing their own materials is not penny pinching. It is, after all, saving the tradesmen the cost of having to do it themselves.

In theory, but it’s often as much work letting someone buy the materials as it is getting them yourself. Sometimes more.

Not to mention when there’s not enough or it’s wrong or they don’t come in time. These things hurt when there’s no margin to cover them.

csb time. During a boiler service, a local plumber decided that we needed a 2 port new zone valve, and felt that it was ok to install this without asking, turning a £100 service into a £450 bill.

I told him to fuck off, and dropped a new zone valve around his shop.

I didn't pay the bill, as he managed to break the gas fire. Which he also left leaking CO.

In theory, but it’s often as much work letting someone buy the materials as it is getting them yourself. Sometimes more.

Ah - so you're saying that a discount is in order if the trade supplies the materials?

I don't trust anyone to source materials.
Or anyone.
Or materials.

Computer Centre used to (probably still does) sell HP gear to customers “at cost”, but then bills for services.

Customer thinks that they got the best deal going for the kit and is ok paying top dollar for the services part.

Doesn’t see that CC get a payment direct from HP each quarter based on total sales, which gives them their hardware margin despite selling at cost.

I’m so glad we don’t have domestic clients very often in my line of work.
Being in niche industries means that clients can sometimes be suspicious of costs/unforeseen things that they don’t have experience of.

It’s the classic hecklers response - “I don’t come to your place of work and knock the cocks out your mouth to show you how it’s done”

I don’t understand what most folks do for a living so I’d never question their methods or costs and expect the same respect in return.

Random bills turning up after the fact or work done that wasn’t discussed is one thing but if you’ve agreed to a quote then leave me to it and you’ll get the results.

I'd echo a lot of Nef's points, but overall it comes down to transparency. If someone tells you from the off that they add x% to what they source then you know.

I think this is unreasonable because capitalism, but it would be interesting to see this on every product in every shop and see how people felt about it.
It would be a totally unreasonable thing to ask, because you'd need to factor in all the other costs too.

TA!

Double Ta!