Owning your own home

Thank you, all very useful.

Presumably their agent is asleep on the job

The original agent was an old family friend of ours with an excellent reputation but he retired a year ago so everything passed automatically to some ghastly generic agents with a rep for being arses... presumably this applies both in their dealings with tenants and LLs.

@Thope Thank you, that's useful.

Below are the relevant sections of the tenancy agreement so it appears that email does count, although I'm not certain whether my GF's wording constitutes a formally worded notice.

Either way from what has been said above it sounds like the crux is what happened around the date of the 31st July. It is my assertion (and honest recollection) that we had several conversations where we mutually agreed that the 31st July date was no longer valid (although we do not have this in writing). Indeed maybe 3 weeks ago (around the 7th of Aug) the landlords told us that we could stay as long as we wanted because they were planning to move to Scotland and continue renting out our property regardless of whether it was occupied by us or someone else. It was only on (or around) the 17th Aug that they told us that they had failed to find a property in Scotland and now planned to stay here. On that day my GF told them clearly that we were hoping to sign contracts soon, that we were HOPING we would move out at the end of Oct but that we could not yet commit to that date because the final completion date had not yet been formally agreed.

It is increasingly my belief that even if the landlords dispute my claim that we mutually agreed to abandon the 31st July exit date, our continued occupancy, rent paying and lack of complaint by the landlord since July 31st is a tacit and de facto agreement of a reversion to our standard AST agreement.

The stupid thing is that we all want to end the tenancy as soon as possible and in an ideal world we would love for this to be the 31st Oct. Our only point is that we cannot yet commit to that date because if there are building delays then that will leave us periodically without a home. I believe the likelihood of this is tiny, and that if there are delays then they will likely be short... either way it is not a risk I'm happy to take. All we are asking is for is a little flexibility and in a few weeks time we will be in a position to actually agree a date... a date that will almost certainly be the date that the landlords want. I believe that that flexibility is (a) perfectly reasonable and (b) is our legal right.

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rent paying

This is the key. Let's assume that your GF's email was an effective notice to quit. That means that the AST ended on 31st July. However, you carried on in occupation of the property and the landlord carried on accepting rent. The payment of rent and your continued occupation can't (if the GF's email was an effective notice to quit) have been under your existing tenancy. So it must be under a new tenancy, and so an implied periodic tenancy arising through conduct must have arisen - Hyatt v Griffiths (1851) 17 Q.B. 505 and Ladies’ Hosiery and Underwear v Parker [1930] 1 Ch. 304. This wouldn't be a statutory periodic tenancy - it would be an implied contractual periodic tenancy. But it would still be an assured shorthold tenancy under the 1988 Act.

It'd be different if they accepted the money tendered as rent as a payment on account of mesne profits or damages for use and occupation. I'm betting they haven't though.

In that case, since it's a new tenancy, the landlord would have to serve a section 21 notice giving you 2 months' notice. And arguably they'd be in breach of the requirement to provide tenancy deposit protection information at the start of the new implied periodic tenancy, so they'd be obliged to refund any deposit and pay you between one and three times the amount of the deposit under section 214(4) of the Housing Act 2004, as amended by the Localism Act 2011. In that case ,they wouldn't be able to serve you with a section 21 notice until they'd provided the prescribed information or repaid the deposit, as a result of section 215(2) of the 2004 Act.

So if they're right, and the notice to quit was effective and the tenancy ended on 31st July 2020, then they're fucked if they've accepted rent without making it clear that the payment is accepted on the basis that it's a payment on account of mesne profits/damages for use and occupation. Proper fucked.

Hopefully the above should give you enough ammunition to write them a fairly punchy letter/email. It would be far better for them if they accepted that the original AST continued and there was no valid notice to quit or it was withdrawn by consent.

Enormously helpful thank you. We have already replied with a further plea for flexibility but if they remain incalcitrant then I'll compose something based around your suggestions.

Thanks all... donation to the forum incoming.

Ladies’ Hosiery and Underwear v Parker [1930] 1 Ch. 304

I love that.

I had been wondering if the guys technique was to give a 425 valuation when he thinks 400 for a quick sale, then suggest offers in excess of the 400, which he can then say “i thought we’d get some at 420 but it looks like the market only want to pay 400”.

Just remember that at, say 1.5%, the difference between 425k and 400k is just £375. Just think how much work an EA (employee) will do for a ~10% cut of a £375. Not fucking much.

It's not bad. I still prefer the Smirk case. And yes, I did spend a day in the High Court arguing about the Smirk case. Sadly there was little smirking. Bloody killjoy Chancery judges. No sense of humour.

No problem. In reality, they wouldn't be able to get you out in practice until Spring 2011 at the earliest. Even if they issued possession proceedings now they'd be stayed until at least October 31st under CPR PD51Z. There's a massive backlog of possession proceedings in the County Court, and after 31st October there's also going to be a massive backlog of cases for the County Court bailiffs to deal with. Basically, you hold all the cards. Don't let the fuckers get you down.

In reality, they should be paying you to leave as and when you see fit to do so.

Of course the landmark decision in Brinkibon Ltd v Stahag Stahl und Stahlwarenhandelsgesellschaft mbH really wins the case name contest. I spent hours practising how to say that, and still fucked it up the first time I reffered to the case in open court. Eventually a truce was called, and I, my opposite number, and even the judge referred to it as 'the Brinkibon case'.

Ladies’ Hosiery and Underwear v Parker [1930] 1 Ch. 304

I love that.

Reminded me of this ...

Lady Penelope - Take off my dress!
Parker - Yes ma-lady...
Lady Penelope - Take off my underwear.
Parker - Yes ma-lady
Lady Penelope - Parker if I catch you wearing my clothes again there will be trouble!

Sadly I did ask permission of the first neighbour, then the second one said he was happy to continue the arrangement.

I could claim I had my fingers crossed at the time?

In terms of Landlord it’s share of freehold, so we all own the grounds and so forth, but use a venal fool to manage them on our behalf.

i might have missed something, but why do you hate him if he's let you park (for free?) in his parking space for 10 years?

Minigolf.

Yeah. It's also kinda weird and graspy to be trying to pinch someone's parking space when you've been allowed to park in it for free for ten years. If your other neighbours heard about it do you think they'd be more or less inclined to do you a favour?

Also, why do you want to own it so much when you're allowed to park in it anyway?

Even if said neighbour has done something barbarous you'll still presumably bump into them around the place. Wouldn't that be awkward?

I think you’re making the mistake of taking me seriously.

Both true! We don’t want any hassle next year (big projects to focus on) so we’re just going to move.

But as soon as we’re well clear...x3 of our deposit back please and thank you.

I want to put a bike shed (probably one of those Asgard ones or similar) at the front of my house as it's somewhat wasted space (other than the wheelie bins). However, the shed is likely to be about 40cm or so above the window level which I'm not keen on (for looking out rather than looking in). Is there an option of digging down a foot or so at the front? What type of things are likely to go horribly wrong? It's a standard victorian terrace like this.

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Have you considered this sort of thing?
https://bikebox.london

https://youtu.be/xC5vaQq41II

Starting at £4,900

I love the idea but...wowsers

Yeah, they're not cheap but any good and secure place to put a bike costs $$$

Bay foundations to Victorian buildings are often minimal when compared to the rest of the building. Worst case scenario you undermine your foundations and require major structural work. I wouldn't touch that area tbh.

What type of things are likely to go horribly wrong?

Needing but not having planning permission, given that it's going to be between the frontage of the house and the highway.

Anyone here used Gisby Harrison conveyancers in the last few years? We used them when Martin Browne was “the forum guy” and we’re very pleased - wondered if they’re still worth recommending.

A nice idea (although the oxidised finish is pretty ugly) and we have been considering a new garden wall. It's 10 times the price of an Asgard one (and looking at the work they've done probably a fair bit more than that) though and also surprising that the site has very few mentions of security.

I may well get in touch for a quote though, certainly looks like a better looking option and definitely better than causing my house to fall down.

But if your house does fall down you can rebuild it with a massive basement to store all the bikes!

On the security front in one of their videos they say it has a 5 lever mortice lock. It would be fairly easy to grind your way in but not especially quick or quiet. Add (dummy) CCTV pointing at it and they will burgle someone else first.

I wasn't aware of that. Seems a bit of a ball-ache. I wonder how many of the ones near me have applied for planning permission (pretty much none given a quick look at the council website).