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• #127
I tend to agree with pretty much all that Tynan has written above, even if he peppers his arguments with racism and bigotry.
:)
You forgot homophobia and misanthropy.
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• #128
I find it strange that so many get hassled by 'us', I can honestly say that in nearly 5 years doing my job I've never had a go at, or indeed see my colleagues have a go at, any cyclist! The worst I've seen is a mumble of 'fucking idiot' when a cyclist does a particularly dangerous Red.
But then I have a friend who was ticketed (by City, not Met ;) )for going through on a completely clear junction. So I'll never deny there are some arseholes who enjoy the power and rarely use discretion!
But we're not all like that! And no-one's gonna agree on this thread so I'm now leaving it alone :)
Ben, you're never going to win any argument on this topic - because you can't claim to have been witness to every story the numerous people on the forum will pull out. But why should you try, you a spokesperson for the Met or something? Tell your own story of honesty and it will restore people's faith that there are good police out there. Try to argue that The Police (not Sting and friends) as a whole are all Good, and you're on a loser - because everyone has stories of police misuse of power.
All you're telling me is that you've not been on the wrong end of the police much.
Just convince us that you are ok, and that is as much as you can hope for. Otherwise, you'll just be met with a barrage of "Well, when I was..." You'll get respected anywhere, in the long run, for being you. Not for kissing arse or changing yourself to fit in.
Brave first posts.
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• #129
Try to argue that The Police (Sting and friends) as a whole are all Good, and you're on a loser - because everyone has stories of police misuse of music.
All you're telling me is that you've not been on the wrong end of the police much.
The lucky bastard...
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• #131
I am not convinced fucking the police is going to end the issues mentioned on this thread.
I have been wrong before so don't quote me.
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• #132
Right, kids?
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• #133
I'm not saying to fuck the police. Just how some of the attitude is coming across to me!
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• #134
Yet another attempt at humor fail.
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• #135
So, what was the argument in favour of giving out personal details?
I am so much happier knowing that we don't want to make it 'the done thing' or make it compulsory to give out those details (unless one is under arrest) and that, for the moment, it remains a personal choice. Hopefully it remains that way and no one is made to feel somehow 'wrong' for whatever they choose. A bit earnest maybe, but it's important. -
• #136
So, what was the argument in favour of giving out personal details?
I think the argument in favour of giving out your personal details to any curious state official - rose no higher than the quasi-moral *"you are meant to trust the police"*.
I am so much happier knowing that we don't want to make it 'the done thing' or make it compulsory to give out those details (unless one is under arrest) and that, for the moment, it remains a personal choice. Hopefully it remains that way and no one is made to feel somehow 'wrong' for whatever they choose. A bit earnest maybe, but it's important.
Agreed.
I am not certain it will remain within our rights forever though.
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• #137
being pompous... the police are there to protect me. I pay them from my taxes and i elect the people who decide what does and does not constitute a crime from which they have to protect me. I do not have to prove who I am to them. they have to show me why they need to know who I am. if the reason they are asking is to protect me or somebody else who needs protecting, fair enough. If its just to show who's boss, they can cram it.
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• #138
Whilst getting issued a ticket for an RLJ I got insulted by one of the coppers, I complained to the CPS who did nothing for a while, I chased and then promptly got a phonecall from one of his bosses. I didn't want to press any formal charges/processes but he promised me he'd get a bollocking as others had complained of similar, he then insisted on sending me a nodders luminous backpack cover. Good cop, bad cop.
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• #139
being pompous... the police are there to protect me.
I am not sure I would agree with that, I would say they police are there to enforce common law and statues rather than 'protect' you. If I were a little more cynical (not much) I would go as far as to say the modern politicised police force are as much policy revenue collectors as law enforcement and it can not be reasonably said that they are always operating in your interests.
I suppose we would have to have a meaningful definition of 'protection' to make sense of this, but I am sure you can think of as many situations as me where the police's role is not to 'protect' you at all.
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• #140
I am not sure I would agree with that, I would say they police are there to enforce common law and statues rather than 'protect' you. If I were a little more cynical (not much) I would go as far as to say the modern politicised police force are as much policy revenue collectors as law enforcement and it can not be reasonably said that they are always operating in your interests.
I suppose we would have to have a meaningful definition of 'protection' to make sense of this, but I am sure you can think of as many situations as me where the police's role is not to 'protect' you at all.
Our official 'role' is to protect life and property, prevent and detect crime, and keep the Queen's peace. I'm paraphrasing from some official thingy I read once...
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• #141
Good man Ben631 for putting your point of view. If any other section of the community
Black
Gay
MuslimWere treated with such rabid generalisations as the Police on this forum, there would be uproar. There are good and bad in any section of society, and most of the Police officers I know are there for the finest of reasons and are not corrupt, power crazed morons.
The original post is about a copper doing what we want him to do, in a thoughtful and considerate manner. What more to they have to do to get people to recognise the reality of their job rather than getting tied up in the semantics of the law?
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• #142
Not for kissing arse or changing yourself to fit in.
Don't think Ben's doing that, just putting forward the way he does things.
I haven't had too many problems with cops, in fact almost all of them have been good. Case in point, a couple of my friends were visiting and got into a tussle with some gobby 15 year olds. Things escalated, Kids called the police and tried to get them done for assaulting a minor. The copper listened to both stories, realised that the kids were being little cnuts and told them to piss off. Common sense policing.
Of course there's going to be all kinds of negative situations people have had.
My favourite ever police story is Hael and Ma3k's 'lowest speed police chase of all time' one.
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• #143
I think the argument in favour of giving out your personal details to any curious state official - rose no higher than the quasi-moral *"you are meant to trust the police"*.
what about being helpful, and trying to ensure that the policemans job gets done in as efficient manner (and therefore cheaper, for us, the taxpayers) as possible.
Do you have a job that you do solely on your own without any help from anyone else whatsoever? My job involves going to different departments, receiving and giving out information. its really hard to do it when people are being unhelpful 'just because they can'. Maybe no one ever helped you out?
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• #144
what about being helpful, and trying to ensure that the policemans job gets done in as efficient manner (and therefore cheaper, for us, the taxpayers) as possible.
This, like the idea that you are meant to help the police (or meant to do anything), needs a context to make any sense - you would need to add in who means you to help the police, why you should be helpful and so on, without this context it appears to be simple unthinking obedience.
I can't take your defense of the open dissemination of personal information as a cost cutting measure seriously.
My job involves going to different departments, receiving and giving out information. its really hard to do it when people are being unhelpful 'just because they can'.
Straw man.
Maybe no one ever helped you out?
Ad hominem.
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• #145
This, like the idea that you are meant to help the police (or meant to do anything), needs a context to make any sense - you would need to add in who means you to help the police, why you should be helpful and so on, without this context it appears to be simple unthinking obedience.
Sorry, i mean society, conscience, middle class values etc.
Tynan, if you see an old lady drop her purse and not notice, do you need someone to tell you to pick it up and give it her back? Or do you just do it?
I'm sure you know what I'm getting at and are just playing devils advocate.In the OP, what would have happened if he'd said " I'm not telling you anything unless you arrest me."
I understand how this infringes on 'innocent until proven guilty' but the police would be a whole lot more inneffective if no one cooperated with them at all. -
• #146
Good man Ben631 for putting your point of view. If any other section of the community
Black
Gay
MuslimWere treated with such rabid generalisations as the Police on this forum, there would be uproar.
This reminds me of the type of argument that equates people with 'ginger hair' with 'black' people, the argument usually follows a 'ginger' joke, perhaps on the radio ( . . ."What's the difference between a ginger and a brick? Bricks can get laid" . . .etc) - the proponent then goes on to ask you 'would you be so ready to take the piss out of someone for being black' - the argument, of course, conveniently ignores 200 years of violent oppression, torture, murder and enslavement.
The police have not suffered in the same way as some of these minorities have (often at the hand of the police), to equate the two is silly.
There are good and bad in any section of society, and most of the Police officers I know are there for the finest of reasons and are not corrupt, power crazed morons.
How many police officers do you know ?
I don't think anyone has seriously put forward the idea that all police officers are corrupt, power crazed morons.
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• #147
Tynan, if you see an old lady drop her purse and not notice, do you need someone to tell you to pick it up and give it her back? Or do you just do it?
I'm sure you know what I'm getting at and are just playing devils advocate.I am not playing the devil's advocate at all, I genuinely disagree with (or perhaps misunderstand) your idea that you are meant to help the police.
On the specific subject of handing over your personal details to a state representative, I would always say not to do it.
In the OP, what would have happened if he'd said " I'm not telling you anything unless you arrest me."
There is no need to be confrontational with an officer doing their job, a simple refusal to hand out personal details to anyone who asks (including police officers) is perfectly within your rights - there would be no need to throw 'unless you arrest me' on the end any more than it would be a good idea to knock his helmet off and run away shouting '*you'll never take my alive . . *'.
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• #148
Tell me about it. Gingers have been oppressed for millenia.
And quite rightly too, the godless freaks.
We need to eradicate them, we need a final solution.
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• #149
I am not playing the devil's advocate at all, I genuinely disagree with (or perhaps misunderstand) your idea that you are meant to help the police.
I guess I was brought up to view the police in a different way to you then, and to see them as a force of good that is on my side (as a law abiding citizen). This sounds incredibly niaive and cheesy I know, but having never had a personal experience, or known anyone to have had an experience to change this, the ideal still exists in my mind. Sure, i read the papers and i see the police doing questionable things, but that is not all of the police, and we have the power to alter the way the police do their job as well (it is a long winded and frustrating process but the police remain accountable to us, although they are not often portrayed as this). I'm not saying the police are perfect, far from it, but nor are we. The police can only do their jobs with cooperation and support from the public.
I guess ultimately I should be pleased that they haven't let me down yet, but I have an unfortunately large amount of faith in people.
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• #150
Tynan, you may already be aware but just in case not - there's a Common Law offence of refusing to go to the aid of a constable when asked in order to prevent or diminish a breach of the peace.
So sometimes you are meant to help the police! (doesn't really encompass what's being discussed here but just thought I'd drop it in...)
Jesus wept on high, blessed by mercy.