What can you tell us Yanks about Healthcare in the UK

Ah, all becomes clear.

oohhhkay makes sense now. still, these people are crazy.

I can't think of anything much more insulting than giving a black dude a Hitler moustache. Those fuckers should be run out of town on a rail.

She watched someone perform open-heart surgery on a pub floor as part of her training?
The NHS really needs to sort its budget out!

hey, was that in stratford? f**kin rough around here.

this is a semi interesting thread. i can't be bothered to read it all but doesn't it come down to what type of a society you want to live in? me personally I appreciate the NHS but think it's days are over. I want to live in a market run economy. poor people could club together for a health system run by and doctored by socialists that want to look after poor people. The rest of us could choose to take up private health care insurance with other companies. As it stands right now if i want private health care i also have to pay for the NHS too. This is wrong.

In Australia, if you earn over (I think) $50k per year and are on Medicare (like the NHS) you are taxed an extra 1%. If you take out private health insurance, this 1% is waived. So, sort of like what you are suggesting, although some of everyone's money still goes to Medicare.

hey, was that in stratford? f**kin rough around here.

this is a semi interesting thread. i can't be bothered to read it all but doesn't it come down to what type of a society you want to live in? me personally I appreciate the NHS but think it's days are over. I want to live in a market run economy. poor people could club together for a health system run by and doctored by socialists that want to look after poor people. The rest of us could choose to take up private health care insurance with other companies. As it stands right now if i want private health care i also have to pay for the NHS too. This is wrong.

Maybe if you would condescend to read the whole thread you'd find it fully interesting. And you already live in a market run economy; that's the whole fucking problem.

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Maybe if you would condescend to read the whole thread you'd find it fully interesting. And you already live in a market run economy; that's the whole fucking problem.

not reading the entire thread is hardly a crime. What I have read fluctuates between highly intellectual fact, opinionated claptrap , funny, clever and at times touching.
As for our economy ...well yes it is a capitalist lead model but unfortunately people in this country just don't understand markets and how to let them work. We actually live in a mish mash of socialist and capitalist ideas. sometimes this works i.e. the NHS which has been something for everyone in this country to be proud of. Alas, no longer. This doesn't mean that the people who work in it aren't dedicated, caring and professional. most peoples experiences are positive and the NHS continues to provide amazing health care. The NHS was born out of specific cultural circumstances that simply no longer exist. Many people are tired of working hard only to be told they have to use their money to provide health care for people who don't. Some of us would like to be able to use our money in any way we see fit. To those who would like to provide health care for other members of society...what would stop you from using your money to do this , the money that the government didn't take from you to pay for the NHS? Use your national insurance money that would appear in your pay packet each week or month to set up charitable hospitals for those who can't afford health care. That would leave me free to use my extra money to look after myself, my family and my friends and anyone else that I choose to.
I currently have an uncle who is unemployed in America. He is 58 years old and fears he will never work again. I and my family would love to be able to give him money that is currently being taken from us by our government to provide all manner of benefits to people who are simply do not deserve them. In a truly capitalist economy I would be able to help my uncle properly and you would be able to help everyone else if you so chose.
As for the market economy being the problem...well that is just a total failure to understand economics and a denial that the market economy hasn't funded the NHS

I just realise it's only 5 pages long, not 50, which in that case seriously, read the whole topic, you will find it's really is very educational

^ i'm trying to fill in the blanks Ed when i get the time. It may only be 5 pages but there are some long posts which need reading and digesting to do them justice as , yes you are right , it is both educational and interesting. I said semi - interesting because many of the posts are just people being rude and spouting dogmatic nonsense

@ Clintsmoker
What if you became ill and were no longer able to work, or afford private healthcare? Would your opinion be the same? In the US system, your options would be severely limited. In the UK system, your right to healthcare would be uneffected.

The choice comes down to free healthcare for all, or (albeit more efficient) healthcare for the privileged minority.

What you fail to understand Clint is that some people cannot afford private healthcare but still deserve the same level of treatment as people that can. Some people are poor despite their best efforts not to be. It's not necessarily their fault. Not everyone is given the same chances to get to a position to afford the best doctors. We should all have access to the same levels of care.

And someone quite rightly said; a care driven healthcare is better than a profit-driven healthcare.

The choice comes down to free healthcare for all, or (albeit more efficient) healthcare for the privileged minority.

spot on, and the second option just seems bonkers.

What you fail to understand Clint is that some people cannot afford private healthcare but still deserve the same level of treatment as people that can. Some people are poor despite their best efforts not to be. It's not necessarily their fault. Not everyone is given the same chances to get to a position to afford the best doctors. We should all have access to the same levels of care.

+1

I still haven't got much further in reading this thread so i'm reluctant to write too much more. but I would be surprised if it was a straight forward choice between providing the free on entry system such as the NHS (obviously not a free system, my insurance contributions are quite a significant part of my wages) or a profit making evil capitalist system that is out to make money regardless of life or death. somewhere between the two there must be a way.

nope. theres no way an organisation with shareholders to keep happy could treat everyone equally. they'll always end up making loads of money at everyone else's expense. just look at every other privatised service. theres not one (off the top of my head) that is putting service users needs ahead of shareholders, and in a healthcare system that **must **be wrong.
Imagine a doctor with a hypocratic oath having to weigh up care v money! ludicrous.

i presume that happens everyday in the NHS. at some point the care has to cease because of the financial cost.

Yeah but the priority is on care. That would change with a profit led system.

a profit lead system is what funds the NHS fundementally. Profit does not necessarily equal evil. Profit has mostly been used to enhance our lives and funded amazing research and development in medicine and health care

There's a difference between cutting costs to pay for more drugs and cutting costs to pay dividends though.

not reading the entire thread is hardly a crime.

No, not a crime. But this has been one of the best informed and best argued threads this year so for you to say it is "semi-interesting" without bothering to read it all sounds condescending and makes you look like someone who is more interested in having their point heard than being part of a discussion. And had you read the whole thread you'd have seen that the ideas you raise have already been discussed and you could have responded to the other contributor's views. You'd have seen for example that America spends a greater proportion of tax revenue on it's health care system than Britain does which surely casts some doubt on your belief that a greater role for the private sector would leave you with more money to spend how you want.
If you believe that 'charity' is a reliable enough provider of care to the poor then I'd say you are either very naive or very callous. You're portrayal of the NHS as somehow generally unpopular doesn''t seem to chime with the fact that even the Tories have realised it is the only public service that they have to be nice about - because infact it is popular, most people using it find it satisfactory and appreciate that it is free and that they do not have to live in fear of illness or injury or a change in their circumstances that would leave them without the ability to pay for what most people still regard as a right: decent health care.
And if you start to hypothecate tax so that you don't have to pay for the NHS can I choose not to pay for our army or for new motorways or anything else I either don't like or don't use? Why should any of my tax go to old people's homes if I decide that old people should be looked after by their familes? And if they happen not to have families then charity can do it's work? What market system would ever have given a damn about my parents in their last months; pretty poor, senile and disabled? None.

still haven't got to the end Will but after two pages I would agree that it is an interesting thread. It is however largely a collection of personal anecdotes of positive experiences people have had using the NHS. One would hope that the vast majority of all our experiences of the NHS are positive after all we pay a lot of money for it and would should expect nothing less. This however doesn't make it the best way to deliver health care. As for America...well that's there fault if they end up spending more than we do supplying health care in what is obviously a badly run inefficient system. The market would tell them that for free but unfortunately they are too busy tampering with it's results. Shame on them. Because America can't sort itself out doesn't mean we can't come up with a system that would allow me to opt out if i chose private care.
Yet again you use the term 'free' to describe something that costs a lot of money to provide. As for charity..well my point is that if there were so many people such as yourself willing to help out the poor and needy then what is stopping you doing that if i choose to opt out? Why not let me choose to help people I want to and you and your friends can help everyone. please explain to me why this is so difficult. As for its popularity, well i agree it is an institution that people are proud of but for a long time now a growing number of people have been questioning the quality of its service and its relevance. we no longer live in the 1940's or 50's society has changed and simply providing health care free on the point of entry to everyone may not be working.
As for comparing the army to the NHS.....that's a no brainer...i suppose you could choose not to pay for the army and then you would have to accept that we would have absolutely no defence. We all choose to pay for an army for obvious reasons. that's a bit of a no brainer. As for motorways , by all means don't pay for them but then please don't use them. In fact i don't see the similarity in the NHS arguement. I'm advocating being able to opt out where there is a private alternative if i so wish, I'm not asking to be exempt from paying for things. You also seem to equate 'market system' with uncaring, why? for example, what is stopping you or anyone else setting up a caring and loving old age pensioners home where you provide a warm and trusting environment at whatever price you see fit to charge? The market simply reflects what people want it is then up to people to decide.

keep reading, it get more and more interesting (and do so before you start to make your point).

Oh come ON!

As for comparing the army to the NHS.....that's a no brainer...i suppose you could choose not to pay for the army and then you would have to accept that we would have absolutely no defence.

Wrong. I believe we would instead have 'market driven' private defence contractors like Blackwater, who would, like Blackwater, proceed to murder, rape and pillage their way through foreign lands with gay (market driven?) abandon.

We all choose to pay for an army for obvious reasons. that's a bit of a no brainer.

Presumably to stop those damn Huns from invading again?

Or is it to help 'us' secure a bunch of foreign natural resources that we have no justifiable claim to in order to save our delicious 'market driven' energy companies some multi-millions that they will promptly feel no 'market driven' obligation to pass on to us, the poor consumer, not to mention undercut any 'market-drive' to produce/develop/invest in green energy?

And those multi-billion pound aircraft carriers that cost £80 million a year to run? I, for one, could not sleep without knowing they were sailing around all The World's famous Oceans protecting me from the bad guys. Somewhere.

Ahem.

As for motorways, by all means don't pay for them but then please don't use them.

Yes. And... as for private health insurance plans: by all means pay for them, but when your private clinician refers you to an NHS hospital for every operation more complex than a tonsillectomy, by all means, tell him to fuck off.

I cant say enough good things about my experiences of the nhs.. numerous broken bones, gashes, being beaten up .. nose broken and reset, free physiotherapy, yes i've had to sit in casualty for 10 hrs awaiting xrays, and yes i've also been unhappy once or twice with treatment (nose is still buggered after emergency surgery) but the same sort of thing in a private system would have (a) cost a shit load, and more importantly i wouldn't have bothered with sorting a lot of it and would essentially be a bit monged in a few parts.

I have had private health insurance for a few years with bupa and the service is great, many of the consultants/doctors/surgeons are all nhs employed and do private work on the side.. my one experience of usa hospitals involved a 15 hr wait for my insurance details to be verified whilst i had a broken leg after a ski accident in colorado.. i was given fantastic painkillers and my leg was in a splint but i did wonder what would have happened if i didnt have insurance or couldnt pay for it.

a free healthcare service is a basic premise of a modern country (imo). its the least a government can offer after all the pilfering they do (applicable to any country)