Torture

I think its justified the same as if I caught someone fiddling one of my kids and I caught them at it and I tortured them.

Geneva Convention (for PoW's), Universal Declaration of Human Rights, International Rules for Treatment of Prisoners, etc, etc. All of these include articles prohibiting torture.

This is ok as long as all sides stick to the rules but if your enemy is going to lope your head off then alls fare and square.

So would you bring back capital punishment for crimes like murder?

I still find it absolutely shocking that the use of torture could have been officially 'sanctioned' under/by Bush
I remember reading that, a lot of the time, the authorisation came in the form of informal memos. one request was sent to Rumsfeld about whether a particular torture technique could be used where you have to stand for a long time. He just scribbled at the bottom (alluding to his preference to stand in his office rather than sit at a desk) 'I stand for 12 hours a day, doesn't do me any harm'.

Did I read on the forum somewhere that you are/were in the army or paramilitary diable? If so whats the general feelings on this in that enviroment, I would be interested to know....

So would you bring back capital punishment for crimes like murder?

Yep, especially for murder of kids, OAPs, women, disableds and the gays

How about things like mitigating and compelling circumstances? Or the potential for rehabilitation?

If torture resulted in stopping a bomb exploding and killing 1000's of people would it still be wrong?

Fucking giant fallacy. You rely on a set of dubious, if not outright false premises.

Go and read "Ticking Bombast" by Jim Henley:

Let’s say you’ve caught a suspect and you’re sure he’s a terrorist, and you’re sure there’s a nuclear bomb somewhere in Manhattan, and you’re sure he knows where it is, and you’re sure this particular terrorist has been trained to resist torture just long enough that you could never get the true location of the bomb out of him in time. But you’re also sure this particular terrorist is a pervert! And he tells you that if you’ll rape your own child in front of him, he’ll tell you exactly where the bomb is and how to disarm it. And you’re sure that he will, because your intelligence is that good in exactly that way.

Do the families of the 9/11 and 7/11 victims hold the same views as you?

Rachel North does, for one.

Do you actually know anything about torture and the circumstances in which it's administered?

???
...

???

How about things like mitigating and compelling circumstances? Or the potential for rehabilitation?

Nope, fuck em. An eye for an eye

So would you bring back capital punishment for crimes like murder?

No as most murders are a spur of a moment thing. I would bring in capital punishment for speeding, burglary, littering and drug dealling which are not. Then you will see how quickly things change

A notional fallacy. Typically people who commit incidental and acquisitive crimes do not consider the potential consequences, regardless of severity. See the guy who got fined many thousands of pounds for speeding in Sweden for an example.

In for a penny, in for a pound. They could have extracted a confession for absolutely anything.

I'd like to believe our government's statement that they don't support torture as a means of gaining information, for exactly the reasons you suggested. You can get someone to say anything if you apply the right kind of pressure, therefore making it extemely unreliable.

The problem is though, we're certainly not making enough (or any!) noise about what the implications are if we're getting information from a 3rd party (such as the Pakistani government) which has been gained through the use of torture.

As for the Bush issue, well, it gives you the measure of the man doesn't it?

A notional fallacy. Typically people who commit incidental and acquisitive crimes do not consider the potential consequences, regardless of severity. See the guy who got fined many thousands of pounds for speeding in Sweden for an example.

If they gave him the electric chair the first time then he wouldn't have done it again.

I'm out of this debate. It's too emotive and will ultimately end up in name calling or mild forum bullying, I'll agree to disagree with the masses on the positive merits of torture.

Some of the above is a joke.

So you're happy to kill the criminals rather than try to prevent the crime in the first place. Ironically a fatalistic viewpoint.

Urgh, this thread/debate has quickly become futile and pointless, i'll leave you guys to it.

I'd like to believe our government's statement that they don't support torture as a means of gaining information, for exactly the reasons you suggested.

Gov't: No, rendition flights have never, ever, ever stopped in the UK. In fact we don't know what they are.

Gov't: Sorry, we meant we've never officially sanctioned rendition flights to stop in the UK.

Condoleeza Rice: Thanks to the British gov't for letting us stop all the rendition flights there for re-fueling.

Gov't: Doh!

What was it Nixon said? If the president does it. It is not illegal.
Seems that attitude is till prevalent

http://www.torturingdemocracy.org/

Oliver this explains it very well (you can watch it on-line)

This is a very powerful documentary not least for the number of senior US military personnel in it who speak out against torture - absolutely shocking

This was shown on PBS in America shortly before the election.

This isn't the thread I thought it was going to be.

+1

I'm out of this debate. It's too emotive and will ultimately end up in name calling or mild forum bullying, I'll agree to disagree with the masses on the positive merits of torture.

Some of the above is a joke.

Weak as fuck.

So you're happy to kill the criminals rather than try to prevent the crime in the first place. Ironically a fatalistic viewpoint.

Very odd statement. If some mentalist kills your wife, you can't 'unkill' her or tell him 'Don't do it again mate', it's done

www.torturegarden.com for all your pain inflicting needs, latex is mandatory.

Hahahaha! I'm gonna go there one day...

I'm out of this debate. It's too emotive and will ultimately end up in name calling or mild forum bullying, I'll agree to disagree with the masses on the positive merits of torture.

Some of the above is a joke.

Urgh, this thread/debate has quickly become futile and pointless, i'll leave you guys to it.

Then leave the people arguing about the relative merits of torture to it. If you duck out, there's nobody left to inform the rational discussion you clearly want to be having.

I'm gone.