2009-03-20 - Rider Down, Uxbridge Road + Askew Road

It's true that you can avoid the situation, but if people were thinking there shouldn't be a situation in the first place.

It's true that you can avoid the situation, but if people were thinking there shouldn't be a situation in the first place.
numpty's should be taking the tube??

I just dont think the majority of cyclists are aware of the dangers, and dont have exposure to the sort of info that would make them aware - having been in several HGV's there is simply no way no matter how good a driver is at the wheel, that they can see cyclists in the majority of positions on the inside, especialy when you take into account the speeds each is moving at.

I still think there are more cyclists out there riding without much of an idea as to how much danger they put themselves in, than there are bad HGV drivers.

+1.

Every day I see dozens of situations where cyclists run huge risks on the road apparently unaware of what they are doing or the risks they are taking. Watching Brompton riders try and squeeze between two buses outside Vitoria trains station yesterday reminded me of how alert and skilled the bus drivers were. They displayed far greater awareness of the road conditions than the pair of fluro noddys trying to prove who had the biggest dick.

numpty's should be taking the tube??

Not really. I know what you mean, but the whole 'ASL/bike lane into it' thing encourages people to filter on the inside. People who have been riding a while know it's a no-no, but newer riders can easily get misled and if it's encouraged at some traffic lights, it's not a huge leap for people to think it's OK in general.

It is all very simple, cyclists follow/imitate/learn from other cyclists. There are a lot of bad habits out there and they are being passed on to others.

As an example, a cyclist ahead of me at a junction from a Common went dangerously through the red light. Three little girls were waiting at the lights next to him (the mums were behind) and they just followed. It was the scariest thing I've seen on the streets. Everybody screamed. A lorry driver howled abuse at me (he probably thought I was with them).

Not really. I know what you mean, but the whole 'ASL/bike lane into it' thing encourages people to filter on the inside. People who have been riding a while know it's a no-no, but newer riders can easily get misled and if it's encouraged at some traffic lights, it's not a huge leap for people to think it's OK in general.

Buffalo Bill has written Good Things on this subject and the topic of dangerous and counterproductive "cycling provision" in general over at MT. If I had the cable or a bluetoothable computer I'd post a lovely illustrative photo from Cavell Street, E1: a "cycle lane" consisting of a square of green tarmac just big enough for the painted logo and leading directly into the back of a parked car. It'd be even funner if it wasn't about 50 yards from a huge building site exit.

How many accidents ( involving HGVs mainly ), have been where there was more than 1 cyclists ? Ie 2 cyclists, cycling together or a group ?

Safety in numbers ?

• Commuting cycle points ? Like a temporary bus stop lolly pop signs, you meet up with fellow cyclists going the same route ? Cycle together... you dont have to, but it may make less confident cyclists happier and safer.... plus its sociable.....
  
  

maybe too much organisation.... but it works in my tele tubbie land head.

Basically, you cant generalise..... ive had old men in cars, cut me up, HGVs drive at me ! oh yes on purpose ! Doors opened.... blah blah...
Ive had lorries let me go, bus give me loads of room and chirpy van drivers.....

I always try and communicate with all other road users when on my bike.... even giving HGV drivers the thumbs up when they look at me... so theyve seen me and i've made them smile.

Respect ;)

I just dont think the majority of cyclists are aware of the dangers, and dont have exposure to the sort of info that would make them aware - having been in several HGV's there is simply no way no matter how good a driver is at the wheel, that they can see cyclists in the majority of positions on the inside, especialy when you take into account the speeds each is moving at.
The driver's job is to keep a lookout at all times and so should be aware of all the cyclists and pedestrians around the lorry. If they are unsure about what might be in an area hidden from view then they should not drive into that area, or do it at a speed slow enough to scan their mirrors and allow a cyclist to get out of the way.
This might sound complicated but it should be second nature to a qualified driver, and is for those that have been properly trained.

please, this is the real world. think you veevee and corny live in a fairy land utopia.

I like your words of wisdom Dogs. You always bring me back to reality. I want to live where you live, it sounds so much better.

I've been making a list of factors that might contribute to the problem. Anything to add?

truck trouble:

• blind spots
  [INDENT]
  
• while turning some regions are completely hidden
  

• easy to overlook small low things from hight of driving position, even if they are right in front, and especially on the front left corner.
  [/INDENT]

• mirrors
  [INDENT]

• no rear-view

• need wide-angle (or auto-rotating mirror) to cope with changing angle of trailer on articulated lorries

• wide-angle -> small images

• the back is simply a long way from the cab

• lots of mirrors to keep track of

• some vital mirrors not compulsory on all vehicles
  [/INDENT]

• too easy to get underneath
  [INDENT]

• big wheels

• lots of ground clearance

• often huge space between back of tractor unit and trailer wheels
  [/INDENT]

• heavy, hard, some sharp bits, much more solid than a car

• driver may not see, hear or feel collisions.

• driver has a lot to think about while turning

• road position before turning invites undertaking, and then rear wheels travel further into the curve, closing the gap as the vehicle turns

• need a lot of road-space to get around sharp corners - may not be possible to leave a gap on the inside. Non-articulated can be worse for this.

• some bits that swing out while turning

• even heavy modern lorries can accelerate scarily fast

bike trouble:

• small - harder to see than cars
  
• soft & squishable, no crumple zones
  
• can manouver through traffic - hard to keep track of
  
• usually no mirrors - perception of traffic behind relies on hearing or turning head to look backwards (often infrequent)
  
• cycling can be hard work - can reduce alertness
  
• often slow, so get overtaken a lot - generates risk and contributes to habit of cycling on the inside as if it was always a separate lane, not paying attention to traffic in the rest of the lane
  
• generally like to keep rolling because accelerating requires real effort and stopping is awkward - leads to overtaking at junctions, often on the inside
  
• fear puts the slowest on the inside.
  
  
  

road trouble:

• city streets narrow, with sharp corners
  
• cycle lanes invite undertaking, encourage habit everywhere
  
• cycle lanes and ASLs invite cyclists to stop in lorries' blind-spots.
  
• railings can trap cyclists on the road
  
  
  

What to do if you find yourself to the left of a turning lorry?

• If you are level with or behind its rear wheels, stop and wait for it to go.
  
• If you are further forwards than that, scream loudly and try to get off the road.
  

4 Attachments

Not really. I know what you mean, but the whole 'ASL/bike lane into it' thing encourages people to filter on the inside. People who have been riding a while know it's a no-no, but newer riders can easily get misled and if it's encouraged at some traffic lights, it's not a huge leap for people to think it's OK in general.

this is something I've been thinking about recently... Unless you're part of a cycling community like this, or purposefully tracking down info on safe riding, you're going to follow the road; i.e. the "safe" areas as described/ laid out by the government (green cycle lanes, ASL etc). This is why people are always running down the inside of the lane, and thus the insdie of HGV's. It's a place of false security... people can be scared to get out into the traffic and over take in the same way that they might in a car, when riding their bikes, the see that this green lane has been mared as a safe place for bikes, then into a bus lane which is safe... then when these places run out, cyclists try to carry on riding in these road positions. (does that make any sense?)

this is something I've been thinking about recently... Unless you're part of a cycling community like this, or purposefully tracking down info on safe riding, you're going to follow the road; i.e. the "safe" areas as described/ laid out by the government (green cycle lanes, ASL etc). This is why people are always running down the inside of the lane, and thus the insdie of HGV's. It's a place of false security... people can be scared to get out into the traffic and over take in the same way that they might in a car, when riding their bikes, the see that this green lane has been mared as a safe place for bikes, then into a bus lane which is safe... then when these places run out, cyclists try to carry on riding in these road positions. (does that make any sense?)

Yes, it makes perfect sense, and that's exactly right.

I like your words of wisdom Dogs. You always bring me back to reality. I want to live where you live, it sounds so much better.
reality bites!

"Two sides" leaflet uploaded - turn it upside down to read the second half.

I think the approach taken by this leaflet is perfect. I like they way that seeing the message to the other side stops you feeling blamed for their failings, while emphasising the dangers they present to you.

It is also nicely clear and short, but there are a few things I would add to it:

• more explicit information on just how extensive a lorry's blindspots are, and how small the images in their mirrors are - i think many people would be surprised by this.
  
• I think the point "• Cycle lanes and advanced stop lines are there to help you – but take care not to get trapped by a lorry as it turns." isn't clear enough. How about "Cycle lanes and advanced stop lines are not lorry-proof. Don't let them lead you into danger."
  
• add the point "look out for lorries and change your behaviour around them - they are not just a bigger car, they are much more dangerous."
  
• add a point on what to do if you find yourself on the inside of a turning lorry - make it clear that keeping going and hoping for the best is often not a good plan.
  
  
  

Finally, 'Reckless' might have been a better choice of opening insult than 'Ignorant'.

I got taken out today in hyde park of all places,
I was slowing down and drifting to the right as there was a dog off alead running around on the path in front of me.
Jerk comes flying from behind striaght into me , we crash and gone down.
then the first thing he says in a rather posh voice was."that was completely your fault".
which i was respond with how is it my fault if you crash into me from behind?
I wasn't moving fast or did a sharp turn that would have made it unavoidable.
He had a nice working bell (which I demonstrated to him) and 2 brakes.
He got pretty messed up , I felt bad but his shit attitude caused me not caring.

I got taken out today in hyde park of all places,
which i was respond with how is it my fault if you crash into me from behind?

It sounds like he was going too fast and not paying enough attention. If you had looked behind, you might have been able to make a signal or wobble a bit to catch his attention.
Did you get his name and details and report it to the police? I don't know what the rules are in a park but on public roads you are meant to report any crash where there have been injuries. When a guy died in a similar bike on bike crash in 2007 no one reported it to the police.

Moth's comments cover most of the issues and shows how hard it was to get the most important bits of info into a short leaflet.

driver has a lot to think about while turning
the main thing they should be thinking about is not running anyone down. The main thing we should be thinking of is not getting run down.
I don't like the little diagrams. The only way to get a big lorry around a tight corner is to take as much space as possible in the road you are turning from, starting the left turn from as far to the right as you can get. The lorry leaving a 10foot gap is just as likely to be turning than the one leaving a 18inch gap. I think the advice not to squeeze up the left side of a lorry is missing the point. If there is a turning on the left then there is a possibility that any car or lorry could be planning to turn into it. The lorry will be starting from further away and will hurt you much more. The advice should be never overtake anything on the left side if there is any possibility of it turning or moving left.

shit !!! fingers crossed

Another rider down:

New user so can't put up a new thread but there was an accident on Elephant and Castle today, when I cycled passed at 16:30ish there was an HGV stopped with one of those blue crime-scene tents by the middle-wheels on the inside of the lorry turning left off the roundabout onto the A3 Northbound.... almost certainly a cyclist (no motorbike on ground that I could see) and i'd hazard a guess that it was, at best, a pretty serious accident given that the whole roundabout and many approaches was shut down and a lot of cops....

:-(

Another rider down:

New user so can't put up a new thread but there was an accident on Elephant and Castle today, when I cycled passed at 16:30ish there was an HGV stopped with one of those blue crime-scene tents by the middle-wheels on the inside of the lorry turning left off the roundabout onto the A3 Northbound.... almost certainly a cyclist (no motorbike on ground that I could see) and i'd hazard a guess that it was, at best, a pretty serious accident given that the whole roundabout and many approaches was shut down and a lot of cops....

:-(

Early reports suggest that this was a fatal collision, and that the victim was a woman in her 30s.

According to this http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/3827
The victim was a pedestrian and died at the scene.

Cyclist Jim Fleming killed in Gerrard's Cross, leaving orphaned son.. police looking for witnesses/information. I just saw this on the news and found some articles:

http://www.bucksfreepress.co.uk/news/localnews/4256646.Cyclist_killed_in_Gerrards_Cross_named/

http://www.bucksfreepress.co.uk/news/localnews/4257165.Boy_left_orphaned_by_hit_and_run_driver/

http://www.bucksfreepress.co.uk/news/localnews/4276501.Video__hit_and_run_family_urge_driver_to_surrender/

I ride this stretch of road most weekends on the way to the Chilterns and during that recent TT. It worries me that this rider was probably more visible than me and it worries me further that people can hit someone and continue on, leaving someone to die. Sometimes I hate humans.

Jesus, that ^^^^ is fucking horrible. Why this hasn't made the national news I don't know - how the fuck do they hope to catch the bastard if it's only publicised in a local rag?
That's a truly horrible story

According to this http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/3827
The victim was a pedestrian and died at the scene.

Curious, as when I passed a bit later, there was a police van parked out in the cordoned off section and there was a bike with buckled wheels in the back.

Still, whether pedestrian or cyclist, it's grim and as the toll mounts up I understand less and less why we allow such lethal machinery loose on our streets.